00:00:03:07 - 00:00:16:23
Chris
Hello and welcome to the ending Buddy Burnout show. We are your host, Chris and Filly, co-founders of a multi winning functional medicine practice serving busy people with energy, mood and gut issues.
00:00:17:00 - 00:00:24:21
Filly
Well, business, addictive doing, people pleasing and perfectionism might be the norm. It's not normal and it's a major contributor to health issues.
00:00:25:00 - 00:00:38:04
Chris
Our goal with this show is to give you a holistic root root cause approach to healing your body so that you don't have to continue doctor or diet hopping or popping a gazillion supplements hoping something might stick.
00:00:38:05 - 00:00:46:07
Filly
So get ready to heal your body. Get your spark back deeply, connect with yourself, and step into the life of your dreams.
00:00:46:10 - 00:00:55:10
Chris
Let's dive in.
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Filly
Hello, podcast listeners, thank you so much for joining me today. I so appreciate you being here and listening to our body episodes. It takes a lot of time to create these. It's definitely a love and passion project. I love podcasting, but I very much appreciate you listening, especially if you're a long term listener. If you're a newbie, welcome.
00:01:20:15 - 00:01:44:00
Filly
Now we have a bit of a different potty episode for you. Today I'm talking to Jen Dugard, who is a trailblazing fitness professional passionate about serving moms and exercise trainers. We're going to have a big focus today in burnout, but also the pelvic floor, and that's why I suggest, or I said before, it's a bit of a different episode.
00:01:44:02 - 00:02:22:13
Filly
I came across Jen back in 2021. She was one of our coaches in a business program we were doing back then. And what drew me to Jen was her fierce passion and advocacy for moms to receive safe exercise advice to prevent pelvic floor related injuries and other postpartum injuries that are rife in the exercise world. The reason why I was so drawn to to her mission was that I had my own personally experience of a horrible injury six months postpartum in the gym, which caused ongoing chronic pain for years, and it fed other body burnout symptoms.
00:02:22:14 - 00:02:49:18
Filly
It was a big part of probably the worst, the worst time of my life when I felt very, very, very broken and burnt out. I don't want any other woman to experience what I did, especially the pain that occurred when I wasn't educated in terms of how to use my body in safe ways to exercise. So I knew we needed to get Jen onto the podcast.
00:02:49:18 - 00:03:24:05
Filly
So get ready for so much gold insight into your body, especially the unknown regions of your pelvic floor. Oh, by the way, as you're listening to this, I share a very personal story about how I peed my pants in public recently. So actually before that, when I was at my worst in my body burnout episodes, I ticked all the boxes when Jen talked about a hypotonic pelvic floor, which we'll get into a little bit later in the episode.
00:03:24:07 - 00:03:45:06
Filly
I was taking all the symptoms back when when my body was at my worst was at its worst. And so when I discovered that back when I first met Jen, I had this thought that I'm like, oh, well, I'm a mom. I've never seen a pelvic floor, pelvic floor physio, which is what Jen advocates and recommends all women do.
00:03:45:08 - 00:04:07:12
Filly
Even if you're an old mum now, even if you've got grandkids and you've never checked your pelvic floor out, Jen recommends everybody does. And so anyway, so back then, years ago, I had this thought, oh yeah, I should probably do that. And then I met with Jen again in April, and we caught up at a conference that we were both speaking at.
00:04:07:14 - 00:04:31:05
Filly
Same thought popped up as she was baking. I really should get my pelvic floor tested, you know? I mean, I don't have those symptoms anymore, but I think it would be worth looking at just to prevent something nasty from happening, like my uterus falling out when I'm older. But I didn't. I put it off. And then I booked Jen in for this podcast, and then I went on a holiday to Fiji.
00:04:31:08 - 00:04:49:18
Filly
Now, during that holiday, I full-on peed my pants in public. It was really embarrassing. I'll talk about the back story in my thoughts around why I think it happened, but it was just so interesting that I knew that I was going to be talking to Jen just days afterwards. And your unconscious mind really speaks to you in powerful ways.
00:04:49:20 - 00:05:11:11
Filly
So anyway, I just wanted to add, as you're listening to this, I've recorded this this entry, a little bit after I spoke to Jen on this podcast, and I have booked in to a pelvic floor physio, so I'm going to see her in a few weeks, maybe even a month. She was very booked out. So I'll give you an update about how that goes.
00:05:11:11 - 00:05:40:01
Filly
And if my pelvic floor is, nice and healthy and normal, or if it needs a little bit of work. But I hope that, you know, I'm a massive fan of lead by example. I'm not perfect. No one is. Our body speaks to us when there's some blind spots that need attention. So this is why I shared the story, that it was very embarrassing about paying my pants, and what I've done since.
00:05:40:03 - 00:06:05:07
Filly
Okay, so before we dive into the podcast about Jen, do God. So Jen to God is the founder of Moms Safe, creator of the pre and postnatal certification Safe Return to Exercise and author of the book How to Love Your Body as Much as Your Baby. With over 17 years of industry experience. Jenny's dedicated to enhancing the standards of care for mothers within the fitness community and beyond.
00:06:05:09 - 00:06:36:02
Filly
Jen's dual mission is to serve both mothers and exercise professionals. She ensures that exercise professionals are thoroughly educated and upskilled in working with pre and postnatal clients, while also empowering mothers with the knowledge and resources they need through Mum Safe. Jen connects mothers with certified trainers, fostering a supportive network across Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and the UK. And she also serves on the board of US Active.
00:06:36:04 - 00:06:44:06
Filly
All righty. Let's dive into today's episode. It's going to be a good one.
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Filly
Hello everybody! I'm so excited for this podcast episode and with this chat with Jim Duggan, who is someone that I've looked up to for so long. I first met you. You're actually a coach in one of the business programs that we were in a few years ago. Yeah. And so I found, I found out about you through that.
00:07:06:17 - 00:07:39:15
Filly
And because of our history Christianise history, we having a gym and a personal training studio. In the past, everything that you said, I was just like, why didn't I have Jen back then? We needed Jen. So we're going to talk today a lot about exercise, especially for those of you who are moms and preventing injuries and other long term complications that can come if you're not ready to return back to exercise yet.
00:07:39:17 - 00:07:42:22
Jen
I'm super excited to be here and to have this chat, so thank you for inviting me.
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Filly
Yay! So good. Okay, so we like to get a personal with our guests when we first start just jumping straight straight.
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Jen
Into that.
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Filly
Right into your own story. So I guess why you now do what you do. But I definitely know it was the second baby you had your own. What I would call like body burnout. So any time that there's a mental health issue, especially post-baby depletion, would be considered burnout. You experience postnatal depression, hay, and other things that came along from that.
00:08:09:22 - 00:08:29:12
Jen
Yeah I did, it's funny when I when I received your question around body burnout, I was like, I feel like I've kind of escaped burnout in general. Like I'm not someone that gets sick a lot I don't like. I've not. I actually can't remember the last time, if ever in my life I've been in bed sick, which is quite a cool thing.
00:08:29:13 - 00:08:49:23
Jen
But when, when I, when I think about for me it's been probably more mental overwhelm and I'm sure that you'll go, yeah, but that is, that's I mean, it is all related. Yeah. But definitely after my so I guess backtrack. My son was born 16 years ago. I have a 16 year old, which is absolutely insane. But it was their birthday actually two days ago.
00:08:49:23 - 00:09:16:14
Jen
And I say they're because they're born two days apart on the same day. So my son was born and I was 27. I, you know, motherhood was easy. I had this not an easy birth, but I he was a sleeper. He did all these things like that I that were the right, right things to do. And I kind of cruised through early motherhood the first time around and to the point at which I started my business.
00:09:16:14 - 00:09:37:01
Jen
But. When I got to my second child. So two years later, everything changed. And whether that was her or whether that was me, I've been listening to some books lately going, you know, there's a few journeys that we we're going on with her. And it's like, was that is that in response to the way that I was or was I that way?
00:09:37:01 - 00:09:52:03
Jen
And with the is in response to the way that she was. So she was a baby that never, never settled. We've gone from this child that such all night, had all these naps and then went back to bed to a child that didn't sleep. I don't think we got a full night's sleep in in the first 18 months.
00:09:52:03 - 00:10:16:13
Jen
And that's because we went to stay somewhere else and I. Yeah, snowballed into postnatal depression and I feel like that is the way that for me, my whole life, whether it's burnout or it's my mental health that suffers first, somehow my physical body is generally okay.
00:10:16:15 - 00:10:17:15
Filly
00:10:17:17 - 00:10:30:11
Jen
But from a mental health perspective, that's what I'm hyper aware to now because of that experience after having Indian and then even before that, like in my late teens, early 20s and, and things.
00:10:30:12 - 00:10:45:19
Filly
Yeah. So when you're talking about not sure if it was me or if it was her, like, do you feel like there was some things happening in your life or dysregulation in your own system that then could have led to her not sleeping or.
00:10:45:21 - 00:10:58:12
Jen
I don't know, like I've been listening to a book and I'll be super open about a book on ADHD. It's called Scattered Minds. I don't know if you've listened to it or not, and it's quite a confronting book to listen to as a parent, because.
00:10:58:14 - 00:10:59:18
Filly
It alludes.
00:10:59:18 - 00:11:29:06
Jen
To the fact that ADHD and things like that are caused by an event. So you might be predispositions, but there's a trauma event in your life that results in, in being diagnosed with ADHD. So as a parent, it's like I saw that my response and the lack of sleep and potentially postnatal depression was because she didn't sleep and all of those things.
00:11:29:06 - 00:11:53:04
Jen
And she was quite a highly, I think she got called overstimulated at one point. But then I go was my response to that what triggered her response? It's it's fascinating. And maybe they just go hand in hand and maybe there is no sorting it out, but I don't know. I'm quite a reflective person, so I spend a lot of time just going, well, if this and this and if that and that.
00:11:53:04 - 00:11:56:20
Filly
And it's fascinating.
00:11:56:22 - 00:12:21:23
Jen
So I know that her being a child that wanted to be with me all the time, having a child that was easily upset, that did not settle easily were things that triggered my mental health response. But then it so it's this perpetuating cycle, isn't it, of this is what's going on with me. Therefore I'm not able to show up for my child.
00:12:21:23 - 00:12:25:19
Jen
Therefore she is picking up on that. Therefore.
00:12:25:21 - 00:12:29:00
Filly
Yeah, I write her regulation.
00:12:29:02 - 00:12:30:19
Jen
Or code regulation?
00:12:30:21 - 00:13:00:08
Filly
Regulation? Yes. For want of a better one. Yeah. So I'm always curious when when we start these conversations, any theories, whether it's a mental or physical health journey episode, do you feel like the root cause was this baby and lack of sleep? Or do you feel like even if you were backtracking, maybe even before she was born, or anything that then happened after that, that really triggered the postnatal depression?
00:13:00:10 - 00:13:34:00
Jen
I know that I really struggled with an identity change and when you talk about records, it's like, what is deeper than what you think it is? But I even with my first baby, I although motherhood felt easy, I still had this will this is me that is not a mum. And I really struggled with integrating the two and it was I wanted to have my business and I wanted to grow my business and and then I could be a mum, but I needed to be separate and I didn't want to.
00:13:34:02 - 00:13:56:06
Jen
I wanted to divide my time. And of course, as a mum, it's very hard to do those things. So I know that there was an internal battle for me around identity of who I am and what I what I do. I also know about myself that, I've struggled my whole life with, I guess, this lack of self-worth and needing that external validation from somebody else.
00:13:56:06 - 00:14:19:04
Jen
So it's not such a big thing now, but so all the way through my teens and, and my 20s and early 30s, there was this need for somebody else's validation. I don't even know. I'll let you put that together, because I've not put that together into that as yet. But that's the two things that came up for me when you talked about records and things that are maybe deeper than.
00:14:19:06 - 00:14:19:10
Filly
What.
00:14:19:10 - 00:14:21:04
Jen
Was showing up on a symptomatic level.
00:14:21:06 - 00:14:38:06
Filly
Yeah. And do you feel like that, do you feel like that was simmering beneath the surface with the first baby? Because baby number one slept well and was like the good baby, you could still kind of compartmentalise your lie. Then when your daughter came along, maybe.
00:14:38:08 - 00:14:41:16
Jen
Yeah. She was just like, you are not going to do that anymore.
00:14:41:18 - 00:14:42:13
Filly
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:42:13 - 00:15:00:02
Jen
But even 1 to 2 babies, right? It's like one baby can kind of figure out your life. You've got two parents. Totally. You know, you can do this while you take take the child. And then a second one comes along and it's like, well, even now we have a child each, or you're dealing with both of them.
00:15:00:04 - 00:15:18:03
Jen
And I remember even, you know, you try and get a routine with the second one and it's just not the same. So the first one had this routine. But with India, I remember, like, she's on my front when previously it would have been bedtime, putting it to bed where I'm trying to put the two year old and do all these things that you just can't formulate the same.
00:15:18:06 - 00:15:23:09
Jen
Yeah. So maybe like, she just kind of it it wasn't even her. It was just a whole circumstance of.
00:15:23:11 - 00:15:23:18
Filly
00:15:23:21 - 00:15:30:16
Jen
It's no longer possible to try and have these two identities without one consuming the other.
00:15:30:17 - 00:15:54:09
Filly
Yeah, I kind of think about it as a pressure cooker. It's like this is getting bigger and bigger and bigger, and then it's like, okay, last thing, bang. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So during this time you're building a business as a personal trainer, working with moms. Can we chat into that space? Because we are definitely going to dig into all things pelvic floor and health and exercise.
00:15:54:10 - 00:16:07:08
Filly
So what did that look like? And also, do you feel like this experience that you had with the postnatal depression, did that really amplify your mission to create a safe space for moms? Yeah, just physically but also mentally.
00:16:07:10 - 00:16:29:15
Jen
Yeah. So I was a personal trainer before having children, so I'd spent about two years in the industry pre pre my son being born. And then because it was so easy with him I was like, what am I going to do? Am I going to start my own business, am I? And I did I at that point I was able to go to the gym and I was able to do all the things that I knew to do for myself.
00:16:29:15 - 00:16:52:12
Jen
As someone who was using exercise to support my mental health and my physical well-being, I did not know the right things to do. And I look back and kind of cringe on what I actually did put my body through after the first baby. But I found myself surrounded by a lot of moms that either one wouldn't carve out time for themselves to go to the gym, or if they did, they didn't know what to do when they got there.
00:16:52:12 - 00:17:14:12
Jen
So I created a quick training business for mums. Back then it was called Body Beyond Baby and it was a group exercise for moms in Centennial Park. And we had onsite childcare because initially I thought if I can bring my child with me, happy days. I soon realised that I needed to not have my child there, but at the and it was okay for other people to pay attention to their child while they were training with me.
00:17:14:12 - 00:17:34:12
Jen
But what I did believe in was yes, bring your children with you. But I want to create an environment where there is some separation between mum and child. And now when I'm thinking about that, it's like I was going through my own need to have separation between mum and child. I was forcing that upon other people. I was creating a nice environment.
00:17:34:12 - 00:17:53:06
Jen
They could do that. There was no rules. Like if you wanted your baby there, you could do it. But I now, in reflection, go, well, that is why I hang so tightly to having that. Then nannies in that childcare support system within my business and was like the biggest cost to my business. So from a financial place, I remember sitting down my accountant once and he was like, can you not just get rid of the nanny?
00:17:53:06 - 00:18:16:00
Jen
So I was like, absolutely not, because these women need the opportunity to have time out. So it was definitely born of wanting to help mums and creating a safe space for them to exercise. And then, yeah, I do think that once I had my second baby and I had that experience, the the need to support women more from a mental health aspect definitely came in.
00:18:16:00 - 00:18:36:20
Jen
And we still partner today with Cope, which is a centre of perinatal excellence. So supporting women with perinatal and postnatal depression, anxiety and their families. We actually ran a program there for a while where we partnered with a local business and we had a subsidised spot within, within our business that was for women experiencing mental health or other struggles.
00:18:36:20 - 00:18:39:02
Jen
So, yeah.
00:18:39:04 - 00:18:53:13
Filly
I love that. I actually know that that was part of your partnership cycle. Yeah. So then it so then you transitioned out of being the personal trainer to training other trainers in your in your method?
00:18:53:15 - 00:18:54:15
Jen
I did. Well yeah.
00:18:54:15 - 00:18:56:21
Filly
So I oh how did that. Oh how did that.
00:18:56:21 - 00:19:24:05
Jen
Yeah of course. So I guess I've always loved reading business books. And you know, I thought about centralising and licensing and all that kind of thing. And in 2016 I created a I started opening different locations. So I had contractors working for me and it was okay, but it didn't really. I mean, contractors can be amazing and they can be very, not amazing and people can be amazing and very you know what amazed me?
00:19:24:07 - 00:19:44:09
Jen
So I kind of was like, well, if I want to reach other mums, how else can I do this if I'm not multiplying my the business that I'm in right now? So I wrote a plain postnatal certification. So we still run that today. It's called safe Return to Exercise. And we started running that. And I say we I started running that across the country in different in different countries.
00:19:44:09 - 00:20:02:09
Jen
So we've been to Singapore, to Taiwan. We've had people from the UK come through the course. So I started to do that in 2016, and I also started to become aware that I probably didn't want to stand outside in the park for the rest of my life, and in my head, I think I had like this ten year time frame.
00:20:02:10 - 00:20:20:12
Jen
And I wanted to start to think about what I was going to do next, how I was going to do it, who I was going to work with, what was the evolution of this fitness business that I ultimately ran for a decade in Centennial Park in Sydney, and I created, it was called back then The Body, the baby affiliate team.
00:20:20:12 - 00:20:39:15
Jen
So in my quest to look for licensees or potential franchisees back then, I met this wonderful woman, Mike Delana, who still is within the business today, and she said, know I want to do what you do, and I want to, but I don't want to grow my own business, but I want to grow my own brand. I don't want to just pick up your brand and replicate it as a licensee.
00:20:39:17 - 00:21:04:19
Jen
So I kind of fell into licensing and meant not licensing, sorry, mentoring instead of licensing. And that is what's now known as mums safe. So mums safe trainers run their own business, but they they hold specific certifications in between postnatal exercise. They are partnered with a pelvic health physiotherapist. They hold the correct insurance and registration, and they're committed to their ongoing education and working with women and mums.
00:21:04:19 - 00:21:10:22
Jen
So yeah, I'm safe as trainers across Australia and beyond.
00:21:10:22 - 00:21:33:21
Filly
So it's great. I, I love it, so cool. I know I've shared this on our podcast and also but we're having a conversation earlier, I had a pretty horrific, gym injury past six months after having my baby and I had I had very little knowledge that of what to do or what not to do. Even when I was pregnant.
00:21:33:23 - 00:21:57:07
Filly
I remember my doctor said because I didn't ask questions around exercise, and I think the doctor said, oh, if you still if you are already doing that type of exercise and you're fit and healthy, just keep doing it, which I did. And then I thought that that applied after you have the baby as well. And then I tried to do a deadlift with not even a very heavy weight, but really hurt my back.
00:21:57:07 - 00:22:20:13
Filly
And it caused a lot of issues and it was all part of my body burn out symptoms back into. And so when I came across you, I'm like, why did I not have you and this information? So can you talk a bit more into what did actually one. Why is it important to for mums and also trainers to have knowledge around returning back to exercise after having babies?
00:22:20:15 - 00:22:31:18
Filly
And it's not just after birth either. It could be you might have had a baby ten years ago. And is it? Are you doing what's safe for you? And yeah, let's let's go into that. I.
00:22:31:20 - 00:23:04:09
Jen
I think that the biggest thing that I just want to highlight in that is that women are not given any exercise in by any exercise guidance or any standardised exercise guidance in pregnancy or postpartum. And the this thought process that exactly like you said, if you've been doing it already, keep doing it. In pregnancy and postpartum, although all the research right now is pointing to, we can actually do more than we've kind of gone through this.
00:23:04:11 - 00:23:05:00
Filly
Oh, I.
00:23:05:00 - 00:23:23:09
Jen
Have in the circles that we move in, have gone through this like pull back, pull out, pull back. And now a lot of the research is saying push forward. This flows in that as well because in that saying push forward, we're not teaching women how to listen to their bodies. And I feel like it's a big get out of jail free card for a lot of trainers.
00:23:23:09 - 00:23:38:22
Jen
It just go all the research now says you can exercise your high level and it's not harmful and it's all these things. But I think the most important thing is that women are not given an education about how to listen to their body. And also how to listen to their body when it's not necessarily giving them a.
00:23:39:03 - 00:23:39:19
Filly
Main.
00:23:39:21 - 00:24:16:20
Jen
Trigger. Because in pregnancy, if you're a runner, yes, you can continue to run. Your body will probably run. Some women can run without pain throughout their whole pregnancy. Do I sit in the of women should run throughout their pregnancy if it feels okay, they would do it beforehand. I don't, absolutely not. Because what I know is the weakening of the pelvic floor, potentially over time, is not something that you can consciously feel like, you know, if you have symptoms or leaking or a heaviness or a dragging, like you need to listen to those, but they're also not pain triggers for a lot of people, it's cycle that's a bit uncomfortable.
00:24:16:23 - 00:24:36:02
Jen
I just leaked, but it doesn't hurt, so I'm going to continue to do it anyway. So there really needs to be this education around one. How to listen to your body, especially if your body's not yelling at you. And also even if the body is not giving you any triggers.
00:24:36:04 - 00:24:38:02
Filly
What.
00:24:38:04 - 00:24:41:05
Jen
What could be happening so that we can.
00:24:41:10 - 00:24:41:19
Filly
00:24:41:19 - 00:24:58:15
Jen
On the side of caution? Because at the end of the day, in pregnancy, it's nine months. Like, you know, we women go, I want to keep moving, I want to do this, and I want to do the other, the other and yes, research tells us that it's more dangerous for a woman to do no exercise in pregnancy than to start exercising in pregnancy.
00:24:58:15 - 00:25:25:19
Jen
So that's another myth on the complete other side that we need to get rid of that. Don't start anything that you didn't do beforehand, because that is also not true. But moving to the same intensity or just doing the same stuff because you were doing it beforehand is not a good guideline to to kind of go in. And then when we come back to the postnatal side of things, your six week check-up is not a green light to go back to what you were doing pre-pregnancy.
00:25:25:21 - 00:25:43:11
Jen
And I think the fitness industry have done a real disservice in this space because we have adopted the six week check-up. So when you go and see a personal trainer or you go to a gym, they say to you, have you had a baby in the last 12 months? Well, you talked about this before. 12 months is not a magic number.
00:25:43:16 - 00:26:02:09
Jen
So straight away a party that has no further education in working with 20% of women will go, oh, you didn't have your baby 12 months ago. Cool. I don't need to worry about that. And we can delve into that a little bit deeper later on. Then they'll say, have you had your six week check-up? And then they'll say, do you feel okay?
00:26:02:11 - 00:26:18:02
Jen
So the six week check-up is the end of the medical care in the postpartum period. For the mum, it is not a green light to move forward into whatever exercise you want to do or the exercise that you're doing beforehand.
00:26:18:04 - 00:26:32:22
Filly
Now when you're talking about the green light, are you talking specifically around the pelvic floor or that other parts of the body that you think about when it when you think about returning to exercise in a safe way?
00:26:32:23 - 00:26:46:21
Jen
Yeah, lots of pelvic floor gets a lot of airtime. And that's good because at the end of the day, the pelvic floor holds in the organs of the pelvis in a woman. And when that's not functioning properly, we start talking about prolapse and incontinence. And all that kind of thing. But there's definitely other parts of the body that we need to be aware of.
00:26:46:21 - 00:26:53:17
Jen
So inside safe we try to exercise. We talk about the five key contraindications. So pelvic floor is one of them.
00:26:53:19 - 00:26:54:02
Filly
00:26:54:02 - 00:27:11:20
Jen
Abdominal wall. So you know we used to get really obsessed with abdominal separation and closing the gap and all that kind of thing. And we can dig into that a little bit more in a second if we want to. Then we've got pelvic pain because of course the pelvis has been under a lot of stress during pregnancy.
00:27:11:22 - 00:27:33:12
Jen
And, you know, even into postpartum, some women will still experience pelvic pain. So we're looking at abdominal wall, pelvic floor, pelvic pain. And then also I'm interested in risk pain, which often gets overlooked by a lot of people. So women can have they can have carpal tunnel syndrome which is the swelling of the, of the wrist which compresses the the nerve.
00:27:33:14 - 00:27:52:15
Jen
They can have what's called decoy avian syndrome, which is often known as mumps. And that's from overuse of, of the thumb. And then they can have general wrist pain. So a lot of the time with wrist pain we use preventative strategies. So things like no creases in your wrists can really help. Not to end up with a lot of wrist pain.
00:27:52:15 - 00:28:10:23
Jen
So if you're pushing a pram you know, make sure that you know, if you're holding a baby make sure your your hand is straight. The thing that supports wrist pain is rest. And I've never met a new mum or a mum that can really respect dinghies and rest their wrists. And then the other one that's often overlooked is knee pain.
00:28:11:01 - 00:28:29:06
Jen
So a lot of post-partum women and pregnant women, but specifically postpartum women, will experience knee pain. A lot of that can be down to doing the most physically demanding job in potentially the most deconditioned state that she's ever been in, especially if she's someone that's had a desk job and not has not exercised a lot pre having her baby.
00:28:29:08 - 00:28:57:18
Jen
And it can also be to do with what's called the cue angle of your hips. So a woman's cue angle is wider than a man's anyway. And the cue angle runs from, from your hip to the middle of your kneecap. And then there is research to suggest that in pregnancy that angle gets gets wider. So it may be if she's in a training environment, allowing her to turn her feet out more or find a comfy position, if she's picking a baby up and down off the ground, showing her how to do that in a position that that supports any knee pain.
00:28:57:20 - 00:29:02:11
Filly
For those hips, is that just in reference to when you're pregnant or they can stay out?
00:29:02:12 - 00:29:08:21
Jen
Well, in a woman UK angle is wider anyway. Yeah. And then postpartum it is wider.
00:29:08:23 - 00:29:22:16
Filly
Okay. Yeah. So having an awareness of all those areas is that to one prevent injury and also to adapt the type of movements that the woman can do in a safe way.
00:29:22:20 - 00:29:37:22
Jen
Yeah, absolutely. So in an ideal world every woman would have a they'd have their six week check-up and then they would have a postpartum screening, which is then going to cover all of those bases, especially pelvic floor wall. And if people.
00:29:38:00 - 00:29:39:02
Filly
00:29:39:04 - 00:29:59:07
Jen
Come across an exercise professional who really does know what they're doing, they will do a, they will talk to you about pelvic floor symptoms. We'll teach you how to switch on your pelvic floor. They will check you for abdominal separation, and they won't just check you for the depth. They'll talk about width. They'll talk about length. They'll talk about, tension at the Linea Alba.
00:29:59:09 - 00:30:18:10
Jen
And then we want to make sure we're asking other questions around, obviously the pelvis, race pain and knee pain with the caveat of there is only so much that an exercise professional can do within our scope of practice. So the other person that we would love every post-partum pregnant and postpartum woman to say would be a pelvic health physiotherapist.
00:30:18:16 - 00:30:50:15
Jen
Yeah. And another way, if you're a mum looking for a trainer to know that you're trying to really knows what they're doing is to say, who is your pelvic health physio partner? And if they're just like, oh, I don't really have one, that to me is a bit of a red light to go, oh, this trainer maybe hasn't done the amount of education that I might like them to have done to trust my body at this phase of life, because I know after 16 years of experience in working with mums, I cannot do my job without the input of a pelvic health physiotherapist.
00:30:50:15 - 00:30:54:03
Jen
With the woman that I'm working with.
00:30:54:05 - 00:30:56:21
Filly
I'm pretty sure there's a lot of personal trainers that don't do that.
00:30:57:02 - 00:30:59:03
Jen
Yeah, of course there's she is.
00:30:59:03 - 00:31:01:07
Filly
Why you're on a mission to change that. And I love it.
00:31:01:07 - 00:31:02:14
Jen
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:02:16 - 00:31:21:04
Filly
Okay. Let's dig into pelvic floor dysfunction cuz as you said earlier, it is something that may be out of whack in a woman. And she might not know it because you don't have that obvious pain as opposed to, like, a joint if it's race or neighs you usually feel when that's in pain. So what are some signs?
00:31:21:04 - 00:31:41:02
Filly
Because we we both spoke at a conference. It was her empire builder back in April. And when you put up the signs and symptoms on the on the PowerPoint, I'm like, oh my gosh, I didn't know all of that was related to possible pelvic floor dysfunction. Yeah. And some too. Did you did you hear I.
00:31:41:02 - 00:32:06:18
Jen
Think the biggest thing to kind of talk about first is going what kind of pelvic floor? And I hate the word dysfunction around women and I yeah I wish I knew a different way. I oscillate between pelvic floor dysfunction, pelvic floor stuff which I don't, and pelvic floor issues like who wants women's issues either. But pelvic floor stuff so we can have, let's say it's a, weaker lower toned pelvic floor.
00:32:06:19 - 00:32:32:16
Jen
So and then we can also have a weaker, higher toned pelvic floor, which would be known as a hypertonic pelvic floor. Now I say weaker lower tone and weaker higher toned. Because sometimes we make the mistake of saying that a hypertonic pelvic floor is one that is too strong. And I was definitely one of those people that after the birth of my son, the obstetrician said to me, your pelvic floor is too strong.
00:32:32:18 - 00:32:46:23
Jen
So I kind of went, that's cool. I that's a strong pelvic floor. It like, it fucking hurt. I ended up with an a Pidgeotto. Me and forceps are not not supposed to have spontaneous and all that kind of thing, but I still walked out with this kind of badge of honour that I had a really strong pelvic floor.
00:32:47:01 - 00:33:06:10
Jen
And what he should have said to me was, your pelvic floor was too tight. And and when we think about a tight muscle, to muscle that's too tight, can't move through its full range of motion. So if you think about a two tight bicep, can not fully extend to relax and it can't fully contract to move through its full range of motion.
00:33:06:12 - 00:33:30:23
Jen
So if you think about a hypotonic pelvic floor being too tight, some of the signs and symptoms of that, well, one of them, which we often think about being only related to a weaker low toned pelvic floor, is incontinence. So a woman that has stress incontinence. So if you jump, you sneeze, you, you know, laugh or whatever, and you leak.
00:33:31:04 - 00:34:06:13
Jen
That is called stress urinary incontinence. That is a symptom of both a hypertonic pelvic floor and a lower toned, weaker pelvic floor. Now, the important thing to understand is that the hypertonic pelvic floor probably comes with a whole host of other symptoms that are often different to that of a lower chain pelvic floor. So other signs and symptoms of a hypertonic pelvic floor could be, lower back pain, could be glute pain, could be, you go to go to the toilet, but you can't.
00:34:06:15 - 00:34:28:01
Jen
The flow doesn't start straight away or it's hard to hard to get all the urine out, or you're not fully emptying your bladder. So you get up and you go away, and then you're like, oh, I need to go the toilet again, because that pelvic floor hasn't completely relaxed in order to allow you to empty your bladder, are the signs and symptoms of hypotonic pelvic floor that start to make sense for people?
00:34:28:07 - 00:34:51:05
Jen
Painful sex, and also recurring UTIs. So I can't tell you the amount of women that have been from GP to gynaecologist, back to another GP to another gynaecologist because they've got UTIs that are happening over and over again. And that's the common symptom. But no one's saying to them, do you have painful sex? You know, do you have any back pain?
00:34:51:05 - 00:35:09:02
Jen
Do you have any pain? Do you are you constipated? And when we get those women to go and see a pelvic health physiotherapist, it's often the missing link that then they get taught that they have a hypertonic pelvic floor, that they need to learn to relax their pelvic floor, to allow that muscle to move through its full range of motion.
00:35:09:04 - 00:35:33:04
Jen
And then the UTIs go away, because now they can empty their bladder and they don't have that urine staying in their bladder, which is susceptible to infection. And I think the other thing to really understand with hypertonic pelvic floor, it's not it's it shows up a lot now in, women that have not had babies are younger women that are exercising to a really high level because what they're doing is tightening, tightening, tightening, tightening, tightening.
00:35:33:07 - 00:35:35:19
Jen
And no one's saying to them and now relax.
00:35:35:21 - 00:35:54:05
Filly
Yeah, yeah. Even. Is it connected to, you know how a lot of people like suck your belly in and like, because I feel like when I do that I have some sort of movement down in the pelvic floor as well, depending on how someone might be using different other areas of their muscles.
00:35:54:05 - 00:36:14:22
Jen
So that can go either way. Right? So you can get someone like if you think about a ballerina, Pilates like people that do a lot of like that, sucking into their sucking their pelvic floor up and they're pulling their abdominal wall in. So absolutely, that's creating tension. On the flip side, you could have someone with a very weak pelvic floor or weaker lower toned pelvic floor who's doing all of those same things like sucking rebellion.
00:36:15:04 - 00:36:28:04
Jen
But what that's doing to that woman is actually creating more bearing down on her pelvic floor, which is detrimental as well. So really, we shouldn't suck to some extent. That is a kind of thing that let it hang out.
00:36:28:06 - 00:36:51:06
Filly
So with the hypertonic, because I think that's that. Now, I remember when you did the slides and these are the signs and symptoms for a hippo. And this is hyper. And I'm like oh my gosh. So when my body was at its worst I had I checked all of those symptoms like the back pain, the hip pain, reoccurring UTI as painful sex difficulty urinating.
00:36:51:06 - 00:37:03:07
Filly
But it was kind of more like I'd go to the toilet. I thought I'd fully empty, but then 15 minutes later it's like I have to go again. So I think that would be a sign that you're not fully quite relaxing. You know, it's a year.
00:37:03:07 - 00:37:05:05
Jen
Absolutely.
00:37:05:07 - 00:37:18:06
Filly
So does pregnancy make that worse? If a woman already has that happening or if she doesn't like because I can understand the physiology of how it would cause a hypo tonic pelvic floor.
00:37:18:09 - 00:37:40:18
Jen
Yeah, it's probably better reframed. Is does pregnancy make it worse, or does that make birth harder. So if if I mean yes, I mean pregnancy could make it worse in that maybe no one's ever talked to about pelvic floor. And maybe now she's getting told, do your pelvic floor exercises and no one's saying and relax your pelvic floor.
00:37:40:18 - 00:38:02:16
Jen
So do pelvic floor exercises and do some relaxing relaxation exercises. You may get that a little bit later on, but pregnancy could make it worse because now a hypertonic pelvic floor is being tightened even more because she's now got an awareness of pelvic floor exercises that she's never had before. She's just had all these symptoms and she's just been doing that.
00:38:02:18 - 00:38:06:09
Jen
And then if you then think forward to.
00:38:06:11 - 00:38:07:12
Filly
The this.
00:38:07:14 - 00:38:29:11
Jen
If she's someone who would like to experience a vaginal delivery, then a pilot floor that will not open makes it very, very hard to give birth. Which then leads us to things like birth trauma. Forceps deliveries, long pushing phases that result in emergency C-sections.
00:38:29:13 - 00:38:31:11
Filly
And.
00:38:31:13 - 00:38:55:10
Jen
So that in my brain, there needs to be this real education with all of our pregnant mums, regardless of signs and symptoms. But to get them, it should be in our healthcare system to have every single pregnant mum go and see a pelvic health physiotherapist at 20 weeks, because if she has a hypotonic pelvic floor and we learn about it at 20 weeks, we've now got another 20 weeks after that.
00:38:55:10 - 00:38:59:01
Jen
Assuming she goes to full term to teach her how to relax a pelvic.
00:38:59:01 - 00:39:00:04
Filly
Floor.
00:39:00:06 - 00:39:28:01
Jen
And if she gets just 36, 37, 38, 39 weeks, and you know, she's working with a physio and she's talking to an obstetrician and the physio says, look, you know, we've been doing all this work, but you're still really struggling to relax your pelvic floor. Let's have an informed conversation, an educated conversation with a pelvic health physio and obstetrician or midwife who has whoever's doing the delivery and the mum herself to choose and make a choice then as to what delivery she wants to experience.
00:39:28:01 - 00:39:44:05
Jen
And this could go one of two ways. Someone could say, actually, I'm going to have a C-section because I feel like that's best for me, and that could really save that woman's pelvic floor and a whole host of birth trauma and everything that comes with that. On the flip side, she could say, and I've had a client that's done this and gone.
00:39:44:07 - 00:40:06:21
Jen
I understand that having a hypertonic pelvic floor is probably going to make a vaginal delivery more difficult. I still want to try and have a vaginal delivery. Now, this client did have a traumatic birth. She did have more pelvic floor trauma and she did have to do more work postpartum. But at no point did she say, why didn't nobody tell me?
00:40:06:23 - 00:40:21:09
Jen
She could say I knew that that was the potential consequence, and I chose that path. And that's the point that we need to get to, and that women are fully informed about their bodies so that no woman ever says, why did nobody tell me?
00:40:21:11 - 00:40:48:18
Filly
Yeah. I'm really sorry. Day labour hypertonic hypertonic by myself. And I remember practising religiously those pelvic floors because my mom had to have a bladder, bladder surgery because she would pay herself all the time and, you know, so she had a very weak pelvic floor and I did not want that for myself. So as soon as my Midwest are talking about make sure you're doing your pelvic floor exercises.
00:40:48:18 - 00:40:59:17
Filly
But now I'm connecting that to that is highly likely. Why it took three days to give birth with all sorts of implications and interventions and birth trauma related to it.
00:40:59:19 - 00:41:12:16
Jen
And it just blows my mind that do pelvic floor exercises. And this is how you do them. You contract and you release because relaxation is a big part of a slowly functioning muscle. And you're going to need to do that when you're having a baby.
00:41:12:18 - 00:41:39:16
Filly
Yeah. Okay. So I and and on whether to share this publicly on this look come to it. Okay. So yeah so I can see clearly that there were definitely signs symptoms. Pretty sure I had a hypertonic pelvic floor. Things are a lot better because I don't feel like I'm taking all of those symptoms all the time. But sometimes some things pop up, like last week.
00:41:39:18 - 00:42:02:14
Filly
So we flew back and I'm trying to like make sense of this. I'm like, is this was it just the circumstances? It was a storm of a bunch of stuff or is this something that I should probably go and have a check-up about? So anyway, I flew back from Fiji to Sydney, so annoying that I can't take my drink bottle and they give you these tiny little glasses to refill.
00:42:02:14 - 00:42:24:15
Filly
So I was really dehydrated on the plane, drinking as much as I could based on what I could ask for. Went to the toilet a couple of times on the plane. Went to the toilet again at the airport, really wanted to go to a cafe in a specific spot in Sydney. So Chris is driving around trying to find a parking spot to go to this cafe.
00:42:24:18 - 00:42:42:20
Filly
Just wanted to like healthy food. And then we had to walk quite a while to get there. So I'm walking and then all of a sudden like, oh, I think I need to go to the toilet again. But again, I've already been like three times, got to the cafe and I raced in, first thing like, hi, is there a table?
00:42:42:22 - 00:42:47:22
Filly
The first floor. But before that, do you have a toilet? I really need to go national.
00:42:48:00 - 00:42:49:03
Jen
Yeah.
00:42:49:05 - 00:43:09:01
Filly
And then I literally started paying myself and I'm like, it's too late. Gotta go. I ran out of the cafe. And as I'm walking up the hall to, like, try and hide myself, I literally, like, paid my full on pay. Not just a little tinkle, but I full on paid myself.
00:43:09:03 - 00:43:25:22
Filly
And I'm trying to make sense of this. I'm like, was it was it that my body was so dehydrated? Was I in a stress state? Probably. Or is there also something going on considering my past history ever? I don't know, hypertonic maybe.
00:43:25:23 - 00:43:35:13
Jen
What do I mean? Did you see it? Well, one, thank you for sharing that, because what I think is it's really important that these conversations are normalised and somebody is going to be listening and.
00:43:35:13 - 00:43:36:02
Filly
Go.
00:43:36:06 - 00:43:37:09
Jen
Fuck, I'm not alone.
00:43:37:13 - 00:43:38:04
Filly
Yep.
00:43:38:06 - 00:43:59:17
Jen
And that is really important because every single woman thinks that every single thing they go through is just what they're going through. And it makes us feel worse. Right? So it's it's conversations like this that we have to have and more openly. So I would encourage people listening to share that share your story, but share.
00:43:59:19 - 00:44:01:17
Filly
This podcast every way.
00:44:01:19 - 00:44:19:04
Jen
To it, but also to share their own. Like what has happened to me that I felt really alone. That maybe I need to share with another woman because that's really important. But I mean, for me, I want to start digging back into, you know, when did you last see pelvic Health physio?
00:44:19:06 - 00:44:28:21
Filly
What happens? And I think afterwards when you spoke, I'm like, even though my youngest is now nine, I think that that would be a good idea.
00:44:28:23 - 00:44:51:00
Jen
I think it would be good idea too. And I think you just hit the nail on the head by saying, even though my youngest is nine, because this is another preconception, right? Isn't it, that, you know, you have a baby, you postnatal for a short period of time. But the reality is, is from the day that you have well become pregnant till the day you're no longer with us, you are now a postpartum woman, and you need to be aware of the signs and symptoms of things that are with you as a result.
00:44:51:00 - 00:45:06:13
Jen
Still from pregnancy, birth and and whatever your postpartum period look like. So, you know, it could be a multitude of of things. But the fact that there's a clear symptom of something that happened, like a.
00:45:06:15 - 00:45:11:11
Filly
Very interesting symptom. Yeah, caused a lot of embarrassment. Pain.
00:45:11:13 - 00:45:35:01
Jen
Absolutely. But is telling you something, right. Yeah. And and you're all about listening to your body and, and and it's funny, isn't it, because your baby's nine. And we were at that conference in April and it's now July and it's like, oh yeah, little, little sign, little symptom. Oh yeah. Little sign. Oh no, no, you just got to listen to me because I'm going to give you a big sign, a big symptom.
00:45:35:01 - 00:45:36:23
Jen
And now you need to do something about it.
00:45:37:01 - 00:45:54:08
Filly
So this is exactly what I'm thinking right now because things don't happen by chance. I'm like, I already had I already had a clear, intuitive kind of like, oh, I should go see it. Just just to check up after I heard you speak. And then knowing that this podcast was.
00:45:54:10 - 00:45:57:15
Jen
To say, maybe it's all about maybe it's my fault.
00:45:57:17 - 00:46:20:04
Filly
No, it's not your fault. It's just that the unconscious mind is so clever. Yeah, that it's like, hey, yeah, this might actually be something that could be optimised. Yeah. And make our life better. So let's do that. And. Oh, sorry. Now, even as I'm talking, I can already guarantee that there's probably going to be something a little bit skew if because I wouldn't have had these recurring signs if there wasn't.
00:46:20:06 - 00:46:24:22
Jen
So now I want to ask you why you didn't do something about it in April.
00:46:25:00 - 00:46:41:21
Filly
I feel like it was because the pain wasn't there. And this is how my body talks to me, because they subtle little signs first. But it's like, hey, hey, this might be a good idea. But then if I don't listen to that, my body will talk louder.
00:46:41:23 - 00:46:42:23
Jen
Yeah.
00:46:43:01 - 00:46:46:16
Filly
Very embarrassing in a very embarrassing way. Last week.
00:46:46:18 - 00:46:49:12
Jen
Yeah. So there was an emotional. It was.
00:46:49:14 - 00:46:54:07
Filly
It was a trickle of urine going down the path. And it's very I don't want to.
00:46:54:07 - 00:46:57:19
Jen
Laugh like I want to laugh, but I'm not going to laugh.
00:46:57:21 - 00:46:59:16
Filly
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:59:16 - 00:47:21:13
Jen
And it it this story to me is symptomatic of the fact that as women after having babies or in pregnancy, the things that happen to us are not necessarily painful, therefore we don't see them as important, therefore we don't address them. And it's the same. It's not just women ourselves, it's it's the the systemic change that needs to happen.
00:47:21:13 - 00:47:47:09
Jen
Like, well, women have been living this with this forever, so why do we need to change it now. But but don't you realise that women's bodies are literally falling apart and then living with them, because nobody has actually stood up and said, this is not okay, that women are leaking, that they don't understand my body anymore, that they don't want to have sex with their partners, that they're that literal, their organs are falling out of their pelvis, and they're expected to continue going along in life and be grateful that they have a healthy baby regardless.
00:47:47:11 - 00:48:10:20
Jen
And I get so frustrated that I've been sent 16 years in this space. And the fundamental changes that I can see so clearly, my camera's not because it's going clear. It's like, what is that about? That could be change in our healthcare system, in our fitness industry, and for moms themselves. And they're just not being done. It's not of high enough importance.
00:48:10:20 - 00:48:12:12
Jen
Like how can that not be important?
00:48:12:14 - 00:48:46:23
Filly
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. Something that comes to my head to have you seen a pattern of women? I'm hyper focusing on the hyper tiny because I'm like, yeah. It's that that has been my history. Have you seen a pattern of women? So you got the hypo and then you've got the hyper. Do you see a pattern of women with the hyper where they are constantly stressed, overwhelmed, stuck in flight, like, oh, I'm connecting that to a busy burnout, perfectionism or overdoing tight patterns.
00:48:47:01 - 00:49:17:21
Jen
Yeah. I mean, I don't know the statistics or the research or into that specific, you know, is someone that is highly stressed, a perfectionist wanting to do things right, more susceptible to hypotonic pelvic floor. I honestly don't know the answer to that. But I can see things like, you know, if she's really again, you know, we talked about sucking your stomach and sucking your pelvic floor and, like, everything is tense, so it makes total sense.
00:49:17:23 - 00:49:36:08
Filly
Yeah. Okay. Oh, then what can happen? Women support their pelvic floor health. So I. Yeah, we've talked extensively around getting a diagnosis or getting a check-up. What then? So if someone's hyper or hypo. Yeah.
00:49:36:08 - 00:50:03:21
Jen
I think for someone who has a hypertonic pelvic floor or two tight pelvic floor, you know, it's a lot of the like for me comes back to a lot of like the mindfulness. Can you breathe properly. Do you know how to has anyone actually taught you how to switch on and then relax your pelvic floor. So going to see a public health physio and understanding the function of your pelvic floor could be really, really important.
00:50:03:22 - 00:50:25:15
Jen
But some things that can, you know, very actively support someone with a hypertonic pelvic floor could be, you know, spending time in child's pose at the end of the day, spending time lying on your back with your feet up against a wall at the end of the day or in, you know, happy baby pose if it's comfortable, if it's not comfortable, like, could be like a lying butterfly kind of position.
00:50:25:17 - 00:50:53:11
Jen
So positions that promote the ability to safely relax pelvic floor. And for somebody that carries trauma and things, they may need some support under their pelvic floor. So that could be, you know, sitting on a Swiss ball, leaning forward, elbows on your knees. But knowing that there's something underneath because it could be quite vulnerable for someone to just let go of that, you know, pelvic floor, depending on what they've been through, what their what the reasons are for having a hypertonic pelvic floor.
00:50:53:13 - 00:51:18:02
Jen
But in a very practical sense, doing that at the end of the day, doing that before you do a work out, doing that at the end of your workout, because your pelvic floor is likely to tighten and tighten and tighten during a workout. Learning to breathe properly. So breathwork, even just diaphragmatic breathing where and even understanding that your pelvic floor, actually when you breathe in is when your pelvic floor anatomically relaxes.
00:51:18:02 - 00:51:54:21
Jen
And then as you breathe out, it's when you, you control, that can be really helpful in a chaotic gym environment, moving away from hypotonic pelvic floor, seeing a pelvic health physio is like the number one. And signs and symptoms for someone that had a weaker pelvic floor would be things like, you know, again, urge incontinence, stress incontinence could be a feeling of heaviness or dragging in the pelvis, which is likely to be a sign of a prolapse, you know, and a weak pelvic floor could be not being able to have an orgasm when they're having sex.
00:51:54:21 - 00:52:09:00
Jen
So the superficial pelvic floor wraps around the clitoris and it needs to contract in order to have an orgasm. Some people don't know that if that's not happening for them post-partum, that that could be a pelvic floor issue, could also be a partner issue. We need to have a really good conversation with that partner. But it's good to know these things.
00:52:09:00 - 00:52:11:05
Jen
And again, women don't talk about it.
00:52:11:05 - 00:52:11:16
Filly
Yeah.
00:52:11:18 - 00:52:41:08
Jen
So in terms of pelvic health support, see a pelvic health therapist like that is the number one thing that I could possibly say. To any mum, any woman that's ever had a baby, no matter how old their baby is. And even if that's a check-up to go, you're fine. Because anything that's happening in pregnancy and postpartum that is not supported in the years afterwards is going to get worse as we go through hormonal, hormonal changes of perimenopause and menopause.
00:52:41:13 - 00:52:41:20
Filly
Yeah.
00:52:41:20 - 00:52:56:14
Jen
And my fear is that we're going to end up with this epidemic of women that are really fit, but their insides are kind of falling out because we've not paid attention in those 30s and 40s to look after ourselves when we're in our 50s, 60s, 70s and beyond.
00:52:56:16 - 00:53:13:14
Filly
And what I say to is, you know, when it gets to that bad surgery. But I've seen so many older women where it's like, I have to go back for another surgery. So whether it's bladder or at, the pelvic floor, because it's, it's not a, it's not a forever fix.
00:53:13:15 - 00:53:15:06
Jen
Will that because again.
00:53:15:10 - 00:53:16:13
Filly
The.
00:53:16:15 - 00:53:44:17
Jen
The there needs to be this intervention of pelvic health physiotherapy. Yeah. So a lot of people will go to their GP and then their GP will say maybe a gynaecologist, but then they need to go to a surgeon. And it's like there has to be at every step of the journey, a pelvic health physiotherapist involved. So if you had someone who had prolapse and their GP or gynaecologist who said you need to go have surgery, send them to a public health physiotherapist, first, understand the function of that pelvic floor.
00:53:44:17 - 00:54:05:01
Jen
Get them to start to to tune into knowing how to activate pelvic floor they can use. It's hard to switch on a muscle that you can't see and you can't see, feel and all those things. But some pelvic health physios use what's called real time ultrasound, so you can actually see on a screen they put the little Doppler thing across the blood in it, and when you activate your pelvic floor, it goes up.
00:54:05:01 - 00:54:23:22
Jen
And when you relax your pelvic floor it goes down. So for someone struggling to connect, you can see it on a screen. It's not the be all and end all gold standard of pelvic floor assessment. Because you need an internal. But it's really, really good for women that, need that brain visual brain muscle connection to pelvic floor.
00:54:24:00 - 00:54:26:05
Jen
And then the women that do end up with surgery.
00:54:26:07 - 00:54:26:14
Filly
Make.
00:54:26:14 - 00:54:32:14
Jen
Sure that they're under the guidance of the pelvic health physiotherapist afterwards, because that's where we can prevent multiple surgeries.
00:54:32:17 - 00:54:54:11
Filly
Yeah. Yeah. So good. So for, ladies, women, mums who have been listening, whether it's their identifying with the pelvic floor thing or maybe even, like the, the wrist, the knees, the abdominal wall. What, different ways that you would recommend exercising based on those things.
00:54:54:13 - 00:54:58:04
Jen
Oh, it's good, isn't it? So it's so complex, yet so simple.
00:54:58:06 - 00:54:58:23
Filly
Yeah.
00:54:59:00 - 00:55:13:09
Jen
So inside safe. Return to exercise. And we pass this on to, clients. So, you know, let's talk about pelvic floor to begin with, if you're doing an exercise and you're experiencing leaking or you're experiencing a feeling of heaviness, or.
00:55:13:11 - 00:55:13:17
Filly
You.
00:55:13:17 - 00:55:43:02
Jen
Can't consciously feel your pelvic floor, or you feel like you're bearing down during the exercise that triggers to go, maybe this exercise is too hot for me right now. Maybe the amount of intradermal pressure that I'm creating during this exercise is not something that my pelvic floor can cope with. So as some simple changes. So like let's say you've got someone, you've gone to a general fitness class 45, I don't know, muscle mass programming, not a lot of kind of individual changes.
00:55:43:04 - 00:56:01:18
Jen
The exercise is a sumo squat. So that's with your legs wide. You can't feel your pelvic floor. Number one change for that exercise will break. Bring your legs closer together. So when your legs are wider apart, it's harder for the pelvic floor to to activate. After that, if she's holding weight, get rid of the weight. So reduce the load or you could pull in a.
00:56:01:18 - 00:56:02:05
Filly
Bench.
00:56:02:10 - 00:56:17:22
Jen
And do a squat down onto the bench where you could. You have that support. You can then consciously activate your pelvic floor and come out of that squat, feeling that, let's lay on the ground, take away gravity and put you into a hit. Right. So you still at any glute? Still it took using your legs, hamstrings, quads, all that type of thing.
00:56:18:04 - 00:56:34:11
Jen
But you've now taken away gravity. So we've moved you from a sumo squat position to a squat position to a squat. We've taken away load. We've now put you on to a bench and if that's still not feeling right, we've moved you into a completely different position where we've taken away gravity and we're pushing your hips up into the air.
00:56:34:13 - 00:57:04:10
Jen
So there's always a, a process of simply, I wouldn't even say regressing. It is, you know, it is regressing, but changing the exercise, to an exercise that meets you where you're at in terms of your pelvic floor. Yeah. And you could be doing your quite a heavy hip raise with a barbell and things, but because we've changed the the load and the gravity and all that kind of thing, now we can optimise your strength because your pelvic floor can cope with that exercise.
00:57:04:12 - 00:57:18:09
Jen
You know, if we talk about risk pain, you know, the number one rule with someone with risk pain is no creases in your wrist. So could we very simply move hair from a push up in this position with wrist flexion to a push up on the knuckles? If she doesn't like that, could we put her on some dumbbells?
00:57:18:09 - 00:57:38:13
Jen
If she doesn't like that, can we do a chest press on a on a cable where she doesn't even have to grip the arm? She can keep her wrist nice and straight, and she can she can push forward. If we're talking about abdominal wall, one of the biggest things for abdominal wall is avoiding that, you know, peaking or Domingue that happens when we don't have good abdominal control.
00:57:38:13 - 00:58:07:03
Jen
We have a lot of abdominal separation. So reducing and double pressure again. So if you're doing a push up and you get your coach to put their hand onto your abdominal wall and feel what position that's in, or maybe you can feel, you know, that it's pushing out. The first thing is to remember what it feels like to do a pelvic floor to contraction, because for some women, when they consciously do a pre activation, then that will put tension on their the linea elbow and it will enable them to do the exercise.
00:58:07:03 - 00:58:24:21
Jen
So before we move you out of the exercise we try and give you a conscious pre activation. If that doesn't work then we're going to move your hands into a into a higher position. So on a bench. And if that doesn't work well then maybe we put you on a bench and we do a lying chest press. Because now we can actually pick up a heavier weight.
00:58:24:23 - 00:58:49:11
Jen
Work your chest and triceps to it to a higher degree. But we've taken away gravity and all of that incredible pressure by slipping you on your back out of that pronated position and reducing interruptible pressure around your head on the wall. So. I guess, like we we work with it and, you know, we teach trainers that you can have let's say you've got six exercises in a, in your, in your session.
00:58:49:13 - 00:59:20:10
Jen
And then along the top you'll have the five key contraindications and pregnancy. Every single exercise should have an adaptation already written into the program for each one of those contraindications. In a great class, or if you're working one on one with somebody, you've already written those adaptations in for that woman. And then the cool thing is, is she learns how to listen to her body, whether it's painful or not, and then she learns the exercise that she does instead if it doesn't feel right, and then she can move into any exercise environment and keep us all safe.
00:59:20:12 - 00:59:31:16
Jen
And the coach could be going, do this. And she's like, that's not right for me. And they're like, oh, I don't. And she's like, that's fine. I know how to change it because the trainer has educated me in how to adapt for me.
00:59:31:18 - 00:59:51:01
Filly
Which is so cool because then it, it follows into functional living as well. It's like, oh, I'm picking up the baby today. The same thing applies to how you're moving your body throughout the day, as opposed to how you moving your body in the gym. When a woman knows that education. Yeah. And not only that.
00:59:51:01 - 01:00:09:22
Jen
But do we we empower her through education. So instead of her feeling lost and confused and disempowered about where her body is at, she now has an education. She's empowered, and she can move forward in the way that that's right for her. And then that goes into family relationships and how she connects with the child and how she shows up in the workplace.
01:00:09:22 - 01:00:15:22
Jen
And it's just like this. If we could just get this education right, like it, it's it's this massive ripple effect.
01:00:16:02 - 01:00:37:23
Filly
She can go to a cafe without paying exactly. Okay. Last question. So you've written a book, How to Love Your Body as Much as Your Baby, which I love that title. I'm sure there's so much in there, but what would you say is some key takeaways that you could share with a woman, especially if she's not really loving her body at the moment?
01:00:38:01 - 01:00:58:03
Jen
I think, at the body, the book itself is actually it's ten years old now, which is insane that ten years ago. But if we move away from the the body and the functional side of movement and all that kind of thing, I think, you know, even the title, How to Love Your Body as Much as Your Baby.
01:00:58:05 - 01:01:43:01
Jen
If women could understand that their self-worth is not wrapped up in the size and shape of their body, we would be taking leaps and bounds forward. So if we could eradicate any personal trainer suggesting that a mom's goal should be to get her body back, if we could get rid of bounce back culture, if we can get rid of her, even having that pressure postpartum to believe that another thing that she needs to do is shrink her body to what she think that what society has told her is acceptable would be such a you know, it changes society and it removes that pressure that she doesn't really need.
01:01:43:03 - 01:01:56:15
Jen
So yeah. So every woman could understand that her worth was not wrapped up in this. And it's so easy to to have it come out of your mouth. And it's, you know, I struggle with every single day. And like, you look at your body, you, you know, compare it to what it was. And you shouldn't do that because it's not what it was.
01:01:56:15 - 01:02:18:11
Jen
And you're a person moving through different seasons of life and, you know, getting older and your body is going to change. It's not going to look like it what it did when it was 15, it's not going to look like what it did pre-baby because it's had a baby and it's now five, five years older. But yeah, flipping the narrative on on what women believe they should look like.
01:02:18:13 - 01:02:36:20
Filly
Which is so interesting. I'm thinking about my wrinkles at the moment, which I, which I was, which I was strongly maybe like a couple of years ago in like, late 30s now it's like, oh my gosh, my neck. Oh my hands fit now. Now I'm just like, hey, that's sort of that's what a human body does.
01:02:36:22 - 01:02:48:18
Filly
Like it's it's actually very normal to age and for things to sag and for things to do some things that, you know, maybe isn't what a supermodel might look like. It's okay.
01:02:49:00 - 01:02:52:07
Jen
An airbrushed supermodel to actually see them in their lingerie.
01:02:52:07 - 01:03:19:13
Filly
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This has been so good. So good. Thank you so much. I know so many people will have had so many, like, followers such as myself. DSA if anyone. So if it if there is a listener who wants to get some help to make sure that they're exercising safely. And also we have coaches and trainers listening to the podcast as well.
01:03:19:15 - 01:03:21:21
Filly
Where can people find the right information?
01:03:22:02 - 01:03:41:07
Jen
Yeah, absolutely. So if you're a mum and you're looking for a trainer that knows how to work with you or even a pelvic health physiotherapist, on our website. So it's mums safe movement.com, you can go on there and put in your location and look for a trainer in your area. There's also a resource on there called safe Return to Exercise.
01:03:41:07 - 01:04:03:23
Jen
And it does say new mums, but it's a phase five phase programme, completely free that takes mums through, you know, their mental health, understanding their birth experience, understanding their body and then how to start going through getting support, I'm going to say postpartum. But again, if you've never had any postpartum guidance, it's a really good resource to kind of go through that.
01:04:04:01 - 01:04:23:11
Jen
And then if you're a trainer looking for education, you can also go to my, safe and just click on the the Find It, Become a trainer button or I put out a lot of stuff on on Instagram. So at gender God is a really good place. I talk directly to trainers on that on that Instagram channel. So and there's a bunch of free resources and stuff.
01:04:23:13 - 01:04:25:20
Filly
So good. Thank you so much.
01:04:25:22 - 01:04:27:09
Jen
Thanks for having me on.
01:04:27:14 - 01:04:33:04
Filly
Thank you.
01:04:33:06 - 01:04:43:08
Filly
Thank you so much for listening. We so appreciate you. If you'd like to give us extra smiles, drop us a review and spread the love by sharing this episode.
01:04:43:10 - 01:05:09:08
Chris
You can also write your own state of burnout and the root cause contributors by taking our Ending Body burnout assessment on our website. And if you're interested in learning about our group or one on one ending body burnout programs, shoot us a DM via Instagram or Facebook. Have the best day ever.
01:05:09:10 - 01:05:09:21
Chris
For.
