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Chris
Hello and welcome to the ending Body Burnout show. We are your host, Chris and Filly, co-founders of a multi winning functional medicine practice serving busy people with energy, mood and gut issues.
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Filly
Well, business, addictive doing, people pleasing and perfectionism might be the norm. It's not normal and it's a major contributor to health issues.
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Chris
Our goal with this show is to give you a holistic root root cause approach to healing your body so that you don't have to continue doctor or diet hopping or popping a gazillion supplements hoping something might stick.
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Filly
So get ready to heal your body. Get your spark back deeply, connect with yourself, and step into the life of your dreams.
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Chris
Let's dive in.
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Filly
Hello! Welcome to the ending Body burnout show. Today, Chris and I are talking about all things mushrooms with Doctor on a sitcom. So this is a really cool conversation. We started off talking about it in scope of body burnout and how mushrooms have these beauty full health benefits that can support energy, mood, gut issues, and also immune system issues.
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Filly
But we also dig into the supplements that are out there that contain mushrooms. And it was very interesting and alarming to learn from Ana that a lot of the brands and not using the amount of mushrooms that they are suggesting, they're using, in their products. So therefore the concentration and therapeutic effects are really diluted. Ana does have her own mushroom brand and line of supplements, so we dig into what that actually looks like when you're looking out for using mushrooms as a supplement.
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Filly
We also dig into foraging and wild crafting and growing your own mushrooms and cooking mushrooms. So I think you've really going to one learn a lot from this conversation, but also it's a really fun, enjoyable listen as well. So before we dive in, the official bio of a doctor Ana CET coffee. She is a licensed and naturopathy doctor and medicinal mushroom expert with over a decade of clinical research experience.
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Filly
As co-founder and Chief Science officer of Lucidum Medicinals, she formulates evidence based mushroom supplements designed to support immune, lung and nervous system health, utilising bioavailable fruiting body extracts for optimal results. A recognised leader in her field, Anna is passionate about educating practitioners and patients on the therapeutic potentials of mushrooms. She frequently lectures on functional medicine, women's health and evidence based herbalism, advocating for the integration of mushrooms into modern healthcare.
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Filly
So let's dive into this beautiful mushroom eat conversation.
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Chris
Good eye, everyone, and welcome to this episode of The Body Burnout Show, and I are excited to be here with you and all the way from over in America, we have on a sick off, to to chat to us today on the podcast. Welcome, Ana.
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Dr Anna
Thank you so much for having me.
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Chris
No worries. You're from a very beautiful part of the United States. And, it's a pleasure to have you, you're in a beautiful part of the United States. We're in Tasmania, which is arguably the best part, the most beautiful part of Australia. So here we are.
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Filly
Awesome. So when we have guests come on out and embody van out and show, we love to just dive straight into the personal stuff, especially for, practitioners who are coming on, because we do find that a lot of people get into the natural medicine field. When you have had your own health journey experience. So are you happy to dive into what that look like for you?
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Dr Anna
Yeah, yeah. So say like a week before I started medical school, my father died, and then I started school, like, almost immediately. And then during that time, my mom also had a relapse in her Lyme disease and had chronic fatigue and just grief. And my brother relapsed. He's a recovering drug addict. And so there was a lot going on with my family.
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Dr Anna
And meanwhile I was just like, pouring all of my grief energy into medical school, and I thought I was fine. You know, energy, grief gives you a lot of energy. And then, you know, every, like, break that we had from school, I'd always just go home to take care of my mom. And it was just kind of like it never stopped.
00:05:02:23 - 00:05:36:23
Dr Anna
But I was young and just kept going and then graduated medical school in 2020. So also, like Covid times started practising, in my residency. And that just was extremely stressful. And it was probably the most difficult time in my life as far as mental health goes. I've never really experienced depression or anxiety before, or insomnia. And it was just really, really hard.
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Dr Anna
And so, after that first year of practice where I was just like, running, I don't even know where that energy was coming from anymore. I got very tired, like, deeply tired. Even though I was sleeping better, I was waking up tired. I was tired all day long. I would definitely say that I had chronic fatigue.
00:06:04:07 - 00:06:31:09
Dr Anna
It was like this deep fatigue. It was burnout. Really? Really intense burnout. And, it was obviously just from, like, all of the grief and stress of the past 5 to 6 years. And, luckily, I had a wonderful support system and so many tools and awareness of, like what chronic fatigue and burnout looks like, that I could name it.
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Dr Anna
Yeah. And I got out of that space. It took a while. And I think that as far as, like the things that were most helpful for me other than, like, my amazing partner, was there's something called low dose naltrexone that I don't know if you've heard of that, but, it's a great remedy, for chronic fatigue, I use that in a live cold water therapy, especially in the mornings.
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Dr Anna
And just like nourishing myself over time. And I was able to kind of get myself out of that space and now looking back, it's like I'm grateful that I experience all of that because I'm definitely, I think, a better doctor. I can, like, understand so much more of what patients are going through. After experiencing that difficulty. And yeah, I think that that's kind of like my most significant health journey that I've experienced.
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Filly
That's huge. What about like, how did you address the grace side of things, or was that just time?
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Dr Anna
I think that was time.
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Filly
Yeah yeah.
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Dr Anna
Yeah yeah. Time and talking a lot about my dad and just like not not burying it away but letting myself feel it and talk about it and I actually yeah I got like very interested in just like the dying process. I did like a death doula apprenticeship. And I think that being more in touch with the dying process and just thinking about it more for myself and, and helping others to have like a better dying experience was quite helpful for, for my grieving process to.
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Filly
So is this during this time, was this when you were getting into medicinal mushrooms? Because this is your, like, speciality, your field of expertise? Was this part of your father's, like, cancer journey as well? And that's where you got into mushrooms? Or was it more afterwards?
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Dr Anna
I it was I think I was exposed to mushrooms early in my, probably in my like bachelors degree. I studied nutrition. So I was aware of using mushrooms more as like food medicine. And I knew that they like played a role in immune health. And then it was that my dad's Chinese medical doctor who was working alongside his oncologist, prescribed the mushroom blend, and I had already been studying herbal medicine at that time.
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Dr Anna
But mushrooms were really not like a huge part of that herbal medicine training. And so I just got really interested and I was also I had, I had already moved to the Pacific Northwest. And so it's just like mushroom heaven here. Yeah. And as in.
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Filly
Like foraging, you can just go out and. Oh, yeah. What you maybe Kevin.
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Dr Anna
Yes. Yeah. They're just everywhere. Yeah. You can go out in the forest and it's almost impossible to not find a mushroom when you're even, just like walking down the street here. It's like you see a log. There's probably going to be a mushroom on it. And so, yeah, I got interested in, like, why my dad's Chinese medical doctor prescribed this.
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Dr Anna
Like, I thought that was very, very interesting. And I just wanted to know more. And whenever there's, like, a subject that I want to know about that I don't know about, I really get a little obsessed. And I just, like, dive all in. And so I just. Yeah, I started doing a lot of my own research. I was working at an apothecary, in Seattle, and I had the opportunity to teach classes.
00:10:21:17 - 00:10:46:02
Dr Anna
And so I decided to teach classes on the medicinal mushrooms of the Pacific Northwest, which helped me learn more about them. My interest at that time, too, was largely about the, like, extraction methods of the mushrooms around here. So I'd take groups out and we'd harvest the mushrooms and, cut them up and process them in various ways for medicinal uses.
00:10:46:02 - 00:11:07:20
Dr Anna
And that's like where I think a lot of my, my passion for them started. And then when I was in naturopathy medical school, I had the opportunity to do laboratory research on, this lymphocytic leukaemia cancer cell line, which is the kind of cancer my dad had, and, different using different extraction methods with that cancer cell line.
00:11:07:20 - 00:11:34:16
Dr Anna
And so I thought that that was just, a really wonderful opportunity to kind of have that kind of experience. And then, yeah, I was given other wonderful opportunities to I wrote the medicinal mushroom, chapter in the Textbook of Natural Medicine and it was really like all of these, opportunities to learn more and made me more interested.
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Dr Anna
And it's like, I'm still I feel like even now, like over ten years into this journey of medicinal mushrooms, I'm, like, still hungry for information. Yeah.
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Filly
What else?
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Dr Anna
And it's just seems never ending. Yeah, well, it's like everything from, like, the harvesting to the processing and making medicine in the laboratory research. And now it's like I have my supplement company and I use mushrooms in my medical practice, and it's just it always. Yeah. There's always like something more to learn from them and. Yeah. Practice.
00:12:03:09 - 00:12:26:09
Filly
Yeah. I think we'll dive into all of that. Just something you said was just like, oh, yeah, that's so true. So when I started nutritional medicine mushrooms, when a part of the training and it sounds like herbal medicine, it's kind of not part of the training either. So it is this missing missing piece from a practitioner point of view in terms of the education that they get.
00:12:26:11 - 00:12:32:14
Filly
That yeah. Like it's very interesting that that isn't part of the curriculum.
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Dr Anna
Yeah. Especially in the West. I mean, I think there's just like some deep rooted macro phobia or just like some fear of mushrooms where it hasn't really been part of our culinary culture or medicine culture that it's just, yeah. It's just like, not, not really part of our, our education at all. Then.
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Filly
Yeah, there. Yeah. Okay. So you've created your own medicinal mushroom line of supplements. Lucidum. I pronounce that REM. Lucien. Okay. So I want to ask because I know that listeners might hear that term diseno mushrooms. And I know that there's a lot of, like, fanfare and conversation around psilocybin mushrooms. So can you talk about like, is this what is this what you're talking about?
00:13:19:23 - 00:13:25:17
Filly
Or is it something else? And what type of mushrooms and formulas are you talking about?
00:13:25:19 - 00:13:26:11
Chris
This is it here?
00:13:26:11 - 00:13:47:16
Dr Anna
Yeah yeah yeah, yeah. You get a full. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. So it's philosophy is a genus of, psychedelic mushrooms. So psilocybin Kubernetes is what most people are familiar with. Probably. And that contains the compound psilocybin.
00:13:47:21 - 00:13:48:19
Filly
00:13:48:21 - 00:14:14:07
Dr Anna
And that is not I don't practice really with that compound. When I talk about medicinal mushrooms I'm mostly not talking about psilocybin species, I'm talking about other mushrooms that are not psychoactive, for the most part. And I don't have. Yeah. Psilocybin in my, in my products. I think that philosophy mushrooms are absolutely medicinal. And that's not what I'm talking about.
00:14:14:11 - 00:14:22:08
Filly
Yeah. So the difference there is the psilocybin or you've just used a different name is.
00:14:22:08 - 00:14:29:22
Dr Anna
Yeah. So the psilocybin is the is the compound in the psilocybin mushrooms okay.
00:14:29:22 - 00:14:44:15
Filly
Yeah. And the difference is those is psychedelic as opposed to the other types of mushrooms, like medicinal healing and supportive to other body systems without the psychedelic component to it. Yeah.
00:14:44:17 - 00:14:46:20
Dr Anna
Yeah. The other mushrooms won't make you feel high.
00:14:47:02 - 00:15:00:21
Filly
Okay. So what? What mushrooms are you using then? Like, which ones are the big ones that it's like, oh, I just love these. Everyone needs to be taking these mushrooms.
00:15:00:23 - 00:15:25:04
Dr Anna
Yeah, I think it. Well, it really depends on like what body system we're talking about. Yeah. But I think that it's like right now, where I am, close to Seattle, Washington, it is a crazy influenza season. It's like everyone is sick. And so I'm thinking mostly about the mushrooms that are going to be really immune modulating.
00:15:25:06 - 00:15:50:22
Dr Anna
And so reishi mushroom, turkey tail mushroom, my turkey mushroom, these are kind of some of the big players that people may be familiar with. And then even just like shitake mushrooms. So these, these medicinal mushrooms aren't just it's not like there's medicinal and then there's edible. There's really this, like a Venn diagram of, like, a lot of edible mushrooms are also medicinal.
00:15:51:00 - 00:16:04:16
Dr Anna
Yeah. And you don't need to take a supplement. You can just cook them up and eat your my turkey mushrooms. And you should talk you mushrooms and your lion's mane. Mushrooms. And get your, your medicine that way.
00:16:04:19 - 00:16:27:14
Filly
Yeah. Cool. Well if we're talking about maybe body systems or symptoms. So there's three big symptoms that we see in our practice. And also you know, as part of like the presentation of body burn out, so energy, so fatigue, brain fog, even sleep issues, mood that might show up as anxiety, depression or something in between and gut issues.
00:16:27:14 - 00:16:35:14
Filly
So if you're thinking about those three energy you got, what would you why does your brain go in terms of this mushroom would be better over this one.
00:16:35:15 - 00:17:02:17
Dr Anna
Yeah. So energy wise I really think about reishi mushroom, Candida lucidum. Is the most kind of, common, genus of reishi mushroom that people would be using. And reishi can it's, can do a number of things. So can both help with energy, but can also help you to feel more relaxed and, a lot of mushrooms have this kind of what's called like an amphotericin effect.
00:17:02:17 - 00:17:25:04
Dr Anna
It's like they do, kind of like what your body needs, and they have like some dual action there. And so reishi can help to increase morning cortisol levels. So oftentimes with like burnout and chronic fatigue that morning cortisol ends up being kind of on the lower side. And that's why people like wake up feeling still tired. And so Reiki can help to improve those morning cortisol levels.
00:17:25:04 - 00:17:57:02
Dr Anna
But it can also help with sleep and relaxation. And kind of helping your nervous system to feel less activated. Yeah. And then cordyceps as well can be quite helpful for, for energy. As far as kind of like chronic chronic fatigue goes, and for, for endurance as well. And then lion's mane, I think of kind of number one for brain fog that comes along with, with burnout.
00:17:57:04 - 00:18:32:23
Dr Anna
And and then really too, it's like with stress and burnout that can add to a lot of like gastrointestinal inflammation, which can mess with your gut microbiome. So like the balance of your good and bad gut microbes and cause things like intestinal permeability and mushrooms play a huge role there. So mushrooms contain beta glucan and chitin, which are two kinds of fibre that can really help to feed your gut microbes, and help to increase the good bugs that we want, like Bifidobacterium and Lactobacillus.
00:18:32:23 - 00:18:58:23
Dr Anna
And then, the kite in, in mushrooms is actually broken down into this constituent called Nagra and acetyl glucosamine that can really help with the gut barrier function. And can help for with, like intestinal permeability. And so, yeah, mushrooms can be really helpful for gastrointestinal wellness. And that's kind of a piece of them that's often not talked about.
00:18:59:00 - 00:19:16:16
Filly
Well actually I haven't I haven't heard any of that about the gut side of things. Like I'm aware of the lion's mane for brain fog and, the other ones you talked about that, you know, we often hear about mushrooms. Really good for the brain. And energy and mood. But yeah, so they have healing benefits for the gut as well.
00:19:16:18 - 00:19:43:21
Dr Anna
Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing too is like, you know, with burnout there's often some like people get sick a lot. It's like, telltale signs, like, if you're getting sick all the time, there's probably some nervous system dysregulation going on. And mushrooms generally are are all going to be really supportive for the immune system and, and helping with your your first defenders for your the immune response.
00:19:43:23 - 00:20:03:06
Filly
Yeah. If you were using it as food as medicine. So if you were picking the mushrooms or purchasing them like how much are we talking about in order to have a therapeutic effect if you were eating them? Or is it more the way that we talk about food as medicine, that it's all going to be helpful? Like, do you know what I mean?
00:20:03:06 - 00:20:08:11
Filly
So if someone's like, I want to eat more for my immune system, how much do I need to eat?
00:20:08:12 - 00:20:11:13
Dr Anna
Yeah, I would aim for like ten grams a day.
00:20:11:15 - 00:20:12:00
Filly
Okay.
00:20:12:01 - 00:20:30:02
Dr Anna
Is is it. Yeah a lot of the research is like between like five and 18g of mushrooms per day, which is like a pretty reasonable amount. And I recommend to always cook your mushrooms. It helps to bring out the medicinal compounds. And I also think they just taste better, better that way.
00:20:30:03 - 00:20:36:17
Chris
But how do you how do you cook mushrooms? Like just so I'll tie them on the frying pan, I boil them.
00:20:36:17 - 00:20:57:13
Dr Anna
I love to sauté them, in a little bit of fat. Usually use butter, and then I like, right when they're almost done, I put a little bit of tamari on top, and that helps. It just seems like it, like, softens them up a little bit more. And then that tamari flavour just gets like it really penetrates in there and it's delicious.
00:20:57:13 - 00:20:59:13
Chris
What's tamari?
00:20:59:15 - 00:21:03:20
Dr Anna
Tamari is like a gluten free soy sauce. It's a gluten free soy sauce.
00:21:03:21 - 00:21:08:05
Chris
Yeah. You probably know that. It's probably in a bottle without a label, you know, in a cupboard.
00:21:08:06 - 00:21:12:16
Filly
I don't usually buy it. I usually buy coconut aminos, instead.
00:21:12:19 - 00:21:15:05
Dr Anna
Yeah, sure. You could do that with coconut aminos. Yeah.
00:21:15:07 - 00:21:37:01
Filly
We, at our local vegetable, the farmers market. Sorry. Which they sell vegetables. That. There's a guy, who's local. He sells mushroom packs. You buy, like, a brick, and then you order it every day, and it grows the most amazing mushrooms. Last year we got one. I think it was yellow oyster mushrooms. And it was just like.
00:21:37:01 - 00:21:51:19
Filly
It was so cool the way it, like, sprouted out of the the brick. And then it was like we had so many mushrooms from it. Yellow oysters. Do you think about those from a medicinal point of view, like.
00:21:51:21 - 00:22:29:08
Dr Anna
Absolutely, yes. So oyster mushrooms are I mean, just like all of the mushrooms. So they have these medicinal compounds in their cell wall that help to keep the immune system strong. Yeah. But oyster mushrooms in particular have the highest amounts of this very specific compound called ergo theanine. That is an amazing antioxidant. And we have transporters and like all over our bodies that are very specific to ergo theanine and the more ergo theanine in the system, the better, as far as I can tell.
00:22:29:10 - 00:22:50:00
Dr Anna
From the research. So yeah, oysters are going to be your, your best way to get that. And yeah. And there's also just like great research with using oyster mushrooms to prevent respiratory illness and, help with allergies and. Yeah, and they're delicious. I think they're like one of my favourite edible mushrooms, for sure.
00:22:50:02 - 00:22:52:15
Filly
They were super nice because my kids.
00:22:52:15 - 00:22:53:17
Chris
That were tasty. Yeah.
00:22:53:17 - 00:23:10:00
Filly
My kids. Yeah, it's a bit hit and miss whether they going to eat them, but when I fried those ones off and I did it in olive oil, coconut aminos and, organic honey. Like, just raw honey. Ooh. It was so good. And my kids were like, this is amazing.
00:23:10:05 - 00:23:34:07
Dr Anna
Yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah. So the a lot of the research on oyster mushrooms for respiratory illness is with children. And it was like seeing if kids missed, less days of school, if they were given this like it was an oyster mushroom syrup. And so it was like oyster mushroom, water extract to get the polysaccharides out with honey.
00:23:34:09 - 00:23:34:16
Filly
Yeah.
00:23:34:16 - 00:23:37:04
Dr Anna
Yeah. So, yeah. Know.
00:23:37:06 - 00:24:04:03
Filly
Like meaning medicinal in my kitchen. Okay. So if we go back to the roots. So foraging because you mentioned that earlier and ye, have taken students out to forage, I, I love the idea of it, but it freaks me out that I might pick something that might be poisonous. So, I mean, obviously there's going to be different varieties of mushrooms in different areas, but what?
00:24:04:03 - 00:24:16:11
Filly
So what do you how do you do it? What precautions do you take? Like how do you learn to know what's going to be helpful and what might be harmful?
00:24:16:13 - 00:24:37:03
Dr Anna
Yeah, I mean, when I first when I was first learning, I would take like three different mushroom ID books with me. And I would like double check all of the mushroom ID and make sure I was like, was the stem hollow or was the stem not hollow? Like, was it gild like, where was it poly pour like there's so many parts of the mushroom to pay attention to.
00:24:37:05 - 00:24:53:11
Dr Anna
Like the, the cap of the mushroom underneath the cap, the stem. All of these features look different in different mushrooms and also look alikes of of common mushrooms. And so that's one thing is like, get a lot of books, get a lot.
00:24:53:16 - 00:24:58:15
Filly
Go pretty sure that like these days as well that you could probably there's copy that.
00:24:58:17 - 00:25:22:02
Dr Anna
Yeah I'm sure that those exist. I would recommend going out with somebody who knows what they're doing and what they're looking for. A lot of the, the medicinal mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest where I was teaching my classes, it's like there are really not many poisonous lookalikes of the medicinal mushrooms here, so.
00:25:22:02 - 00:25:23:12
Filly
Okay. Oh, here we go.
00:25:23:14 - 00:25:27:06
Chris
I, I found your blog and your your list.
00:25:27:08 - 00:25:41:21
Dr Anna
Yeah. So this this blog was like the original passion project. And like 2015, I started this blog. Yeah. So cool, I love it. Yeah. There's like, really, can I.
00:25:41:22 - 00:25:47:06
Filly
Can I just say something so people like, if you leave in the washing, you're in Washington. Hey, Washington.
00:25:47:06 - 00:25:47:12
Chris
State.
00:25:47:12 - 00:25:52:01
Filly
Yeah, Washington state area. You don't need read books. Just use this part of the blog.
00:25:52:03 - 00:25:55:06
Chris
Oh, probably. Yeah. This this will be the fourth.
00:25:55:08 - 00:25:58:10
Filly
Is on it. I it's triple checked.
00:25:58:12 - 00:26:13:21
Chris
But then but then when you're out foraging and that sort of stuff like you like you're saying there's, there's lookalikes and then there's like the gills and the caps and the, you know, how like all this sort of stuff. So you want to, like, cross-reference and all that sort of thing.
00:26:13:21 - 00:26:36:18
Dr Anna
Totally. Yeah. And, I was going to say that, like, the a lot of the medicinal mushrooms that, that grow here are what's called poly pore mushrooms. And so the surface, underside of the mushroom, it they don't have gills. They have like, a layer that's just pause. It kind of looks like skin. And there's. Yeah.
00:26:36:18 - 00:27:07:19
Dr Anna
And there's like really very, very few poisonous poly pore mushrooms that would be misidentified as a, as a medicinal mushroom. And so here we have like our own species of reishi mushroom, that it's not the Ghana dermal lucidum that I mentioned before that's used in traditional Chinese medicine. That it's a local one. Ghana derma organs and and then turkey tail mushroom and even with like turkey tail look alikes, a lot of those are actually still medicinal.
00:27:07:19 - 00:27:27:00
Dr Anna
There's just not a lot of research on them. Which I, I get into that a lot in my, in my blog. But, anyway, back to your question. Yeah, I think triple check go out with an expert. And then also it's like when you do feel confident to go out, make sure you're you kind of have a plan.
00:27:27:00 - 00:27:55:18
Dr Anna
So I never recommend going out foraging without a plan because that ends up being quite wasteful. And so it's like if you like know which mushroom you're looking for and already know what you're what you want to do with it. Like if you're going to chop it up and dry it and save it for later, or if you're going to chop it up and you're going to make like a dual extraction, or you're going to put it into a soup, just like know what you're doing with it before you go out to get it.
00:27:55:20 - 00:28:01:10
Dr Anna
And then also it's like, never take more than 10% of what you see.
00:28:01:12 - 00:28:02:08
Chris
Oh, okay.
00:28:02:09 - 00:28:26:14
Filly
Yeah, I love that. Okay. So then if you are processing it, well, this is a question I guess both for if someone was while crafting, but also, like what you noticed in the industry was that the processing of mushrooms in other brands of mushroom supplements you weren't happy with. Yeah. What what were you noticing there from both a processing.
00:28:26:19 - 00:28:35:03
Filly
So maybe we'll talk about processing from the supplement point of view. And I'm assuming it is probably different if someone was doing it in their kitchen or is it similar?
00:28:35:06 - 00:29:04:20
Dr Anna
Yeah. Well, it's a good question because the so the issue that I was seeing that I still see is that a lot of companies use just basically it's, it's my ciliated grain. So mycelium is the underground portion of the fungal organism that you don't usually see. What we see is the mushroom or the fruiting body. And then the mycelium is like the underground network.
00:29:04:22 - 00:29:31:15
Dr Anna
And what I was seeing was that people were growing mycelium on, usually it's not going to be in soil. They're growing it like on some kind of grain, like oats or sorghum or rice or something like that. And the fungal organism would never actually fruit. So it would just be the mycelium that had taken over the grain, kind of like tempeh.
00:29:31:17 - 00:29:48:07
Dr Anna
And then they would powder that and put it in a capsule and call it a mushroom. There's been a lot of pushback against this, which has been great. One of my mentors, Jeff Chilton, who actually lives in Tasmania half of the time. What?
00:29:48:09 - 00:29:49:07
Filly
From America.
00:29:49:07 - 00:29:49:11
Dr Anna
Yeah.
00:29:49:16 - 00:29:53:06
Filly
Or like, he's like from Canada, Canada, UK.
00:29:53:06 - 00:29:57:06
Dr Anna
From British Columbia. Yeah. That's crazy. So, yeah.
00:29:57:06 - 00:30:03:14
Filly
Chris, Chris is doing a Google search right now. He's like, who is this Jeff who lives in Tasmania. Yeah. Time. Jeff.
00:30:03:16 - 00:30:37:08
Dr Anna
Yeah. So, anyways, so these, isolated grain capsules, you know, it's like the mycelium is absolutely a medicinal part of the fungal organism. But it's diluted with whatever substrate or grain that it was growing on. And so when it says on the label, there's like 500mg of dermal lucidum or reishi in this product, it's like, that's not true.
00:30:37:09 - 00:30:53:11
Dr Anna
Maybe there's 250mg, and maybe the rest of it is grain. And so then the other issue there, I know. And then it's like if people have a sensitivity to rice or gluten or any of these grains and they're going to react a certain way. Yeah, right. To that product.
00:30:53:11 - 00:30:58:08
Filly
Was that put on a label like did it say may contain gluten arrives. It will.
00:30:58:10 - 00:31:08:16
Dr Anna
Yeah. So it should always say like in the under the nutrition facts where it says other ingredients, it'll usually say brown rice or something like that.
00:31:08:18 - 00:31:13:00
Filly
Yeah. But that's not saying half the capsule might be brown rice.
00:31:13:02 - 00:31:13:21
Dr Anna
Exactly.
00:31:13:21 - 00:31:16:02
Filly
You pay a lot for brown rice.
00:31:16:04 - 00:31:41:23
Dr Anna
Wow. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then the other issue there is that as the the fungus fruits, there's a lot more medicinal compounds in that fruiting body in the mushroom. So you're going to get more, more of these, kind of secondary metabolites, like they're called trait for beans. And a lot more of the, the medicinal polysaccharides in the fruiting body.
00:31:42:01 - 00:32:07:19
Dr Anna
And so if you think about like if, if anyone's processing it that way in their kitchen at home, it's like nobody in the history of forever has gone out and collected mycelium from the ground. To use that as medicine, you always use the mushroom. And so, to answer your question, it's like, yeah, it's very different than how people it would be processing and making medicine at home.
00:32:07:19 - 00:32:31:12
Dr Anna
And, I think ultimately it's like definitely not the best way to be using that, that fungal organisms as medicine at all. And so using just the, the fruiting body, it's not going to be diluted. There's not like extra grain in there. Like it's just the mushroom. And that's what it's what you want. It's what I want. Yeah.
00:32:31:14 - 00:32:59:18
Dr Anna
And then I should mention, because I learned this recently, that there is one company that I know of that has figured out how to, extract just the mycelium. And so with certain, mushrooms, certain fungus, like lion's mane. There is more of this one constituent that is really good for the brain, found in the mycelium.
00:32:59:20 - 00:33:23:16
Dr Anna
And so if you want more of those are called arena scenes, then you do want more of the mycelium. And so there's this one company that can, that can do that. And that's, that's awesome. But otherwise most of the time, like 99% of the time, if you're getting lion's Mane mycelium, it's going to be lion's mane mycelia, yam, tempeh grain product.
00:33:23:16 - 00:33:24:16
Chris
Wow.
00:33:24:18 - 00:33:44:07
Filly
That's crazy. I remember this is a little bit Segway but I think it's similar thing. So this is ten years ago and I'm like oh my gosh. Like you can eat healthy and heal. And then I'm like, what else? What else? I don't know. And I looked into toxic products and it's like, oh my gosh, like everything I'm using has chemicals.
00:33:44:07 - 00:34:08:13
Filly
And so then I went and I started buying stuff that was labelled grain and organic, including from I think they've changed their game now and I won't mention their name, but a very well-known organic, skincare products. And I'm like $50 for these tiny little, bottle of face cream. And then when I started getting more savvy and actually raiding the ingredients, I'm like, oh my gosh, they're using.
00:34:08:13 - 00:34:30:05
Filly
And I can't remember what the ingredient was, but it had like a eight out of ten writing in terms of, chemical danger. So anything below one 0 to 3 is like considered natural, healthy or neutral. And yet it had a really high toxic load and I'm just like, how can people how can how can people get away with these?
00:34:30:05 - 00:34:34:00
Filly
How can brands get away with this? It's crazy.
00:34:34:02 - 00:34:50:16
Dr Anna
Yeah, it is crazy. Yeah. And and like I said, there's been a lot of a lot of pushback, especially from my, my mentor, Jeff Chilton, with, like, a mushroom is a mushroom. And you cannot put mushroom on the label if the product is mycelium grain.
00:34:50:18 - 00:35:00:05
Filly
Yeah. And so is that changing now or should consumers be more savvy with who they're purchasing from. So like from you from for example.
00:35:00:07 - 00:35:21:17
Dr Anna
Yeah consumers absolutely need to double check. Like I think that it is slowly shifting. But there are still like I found supplements recently at the grocery store that say mushroom on the label. And I look at the, the back and it says mycelium and grain. Yeah. And so yeah, people need to be looking at both the front and the back of the label.
00:35:21:17 - 00:35:25:22
Dr Anna
And just because it says mushroom does not mean that it is mushroom.
00:35:25:22 - 00:35:28:14
Filly
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:28:16 - 00:35:30:23
Chris
Organic,
00:35:31:01 - 00:35:43:23
Filly
Natural green grain is one because, well, organic is, I don't know, in USA. I don't even know the specific percentage in Australia. But you only need so many ingredients to be able to say this is an organic product.
00:35:44:02 - 00:35:49:12
Dr Anna
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then natural, just like, doesn't really mean anything at all. Yeah. Oh, green.
00:35:49:12 - 00:35:51:09
Filly
This is a green product.
00:35:51:11 - 00:36:00:02
Chris
Yeah, yeah. The the label will be like a green or a brown colour. And it'll be like or organics with an X and.
00:36:00:03 - 00:36:07:01
Dr Anna
Oh no. Yeah. You. So who put anything on a label. Yeah.
00:36:07:03 - 00:36:26:13
Filly
So with your, with your mushroom products then the supplements. Like, have you had stories from your consumers who have used yours and they're like, oh my gosh. Like, I thought I was taking mushroom supplements, but when I tried your brand this isn't this changed for me. Like, have you have you noticed those.
00:36:26:15 - 00:36:27:04
Dr Anna
Oh yeah.
00:36:27:05 - 00:36:28:12
Filly
Experiences of people.
00:36:28:17 - 00:36:57:11
Dr Anna
Yeah I have yeah. And I've also had I mention my patients a lot because in, in the US, not your pets can be physicians. And so I've had many patients who have said that like they didn't respond well to mushroom products or like it made them sick and they thought they were allergic to them. And, and then they they've tried my supplement line and then they're fine and they actually like, feel better.
00:36:57:11 - 00:37:20:15
Dr Anna
And I think, yeah, a lot of that had to do with the them isolated grain. But I've seen that too, even just with like, so I use my, immune formula a lot for people who have compromised immune systems, or who are like going through chemotherapy to use as adjunctive care to help bring up their, their white blood cell counts and keep their immune system strong.
00:37:20:15 - 00:37:44:04
Dr Anna
And, I've seen people be like, oh, well, mushrooms like, they they don't really they haven't helped me in the past. And then they start taking, you know, the immune formula and their white blood cells or like in normal range. And so it's really fun to kind of get to now have like the medical side of my mushroom journey and I get to like prescribe and treat like based on like mushroom therapy stuff.
00:37:44:04 - 00:38:10:15
Dr Anna
And I mean, they're like, I don't use mushrooms all the time with all of my patients. But when I do, it's exciting and especially, yeah, to see people really respond well and and see changes. And I have a lot of, yeah, a lot of, good friends that are like in there, this one friend in particular who's, been using the immune formula for a long time, and she's like in the comedy scene in New York City and like, clubs and just like, around people all the time.
00:38:10:15 - 00:38:20:18
Dr Anna
And she used to be getting sick a lot. And, she just. Yeah, she's like amazed. She's like, I don't get sick anymore. Yeah. That's great, that's great, that's awesome.
00:38:20:18 - 00:38:42:07
Filly
That's awesome. Yeah, this is great. Because like personally again, I wasn't trained in any of my trainings to use mushrooms. And so I, I don't know if you've noticed this with other practices, but it's like, well, if, if this thing that I've worked that has worked for a really long time, it kind of like you just stay in the lane, of course.
00:38:42:09 - 00:38:48:01
Filly
So, you know, I've got my protocols, but I'm like, can I experiment with some mushrooms?
00:38:48:03 - 00:38:55:13
Chris
I want to go foraging. Yeah, I want to I want to connect with Jeff if he's in Tarzana, and then I go hook up and learn.
00:38:55:13 - 00:38:58:11
Dr Anna
Something, I should. Yeah.
00:38:58:13 - 00:39:09:19
Filly
And our oldest daughter. Oh, maybe. Okay. She's currently obsessed with birds, but probably before birds. That was mushrooms. So she even has, like, mushroom. This in with mushrooms.
00:39:09:19 - 00:39:10:14
Dr Anna
I liked it.
00:39:10:18 - 00:39:11:13
Filly
And she loves.
00:39:11:13 - 00:39:12:05
Dr Anna
Oh, yeah.
00:39:12:05 - 00:39:19:11
Filly
I love taking photos that far out. I think she'd just gobble up foraging. It would be amazing.
00:39:19:12 - 00:39:41:14
Dr Anna
Yeah I'm like my mushroom children's book collection keeps keeps growing. It's like because I love mushrooms and my husband has this mushroom supplement company with me. It's like everyone just we have a 14 month old and everything is like mushroom themed. Every gift of this animal, it's like, yeah, and like it, there's a little mushrooms everywhere.
00:39:41:16 - 00:39:46:08
Filly
And if people give you like mushroom earrings, mushrooms.
00:39:46:10 - 00:39:52:02
Dr Anna
Mushroom, everything. Yeah, I do like other things. But I do love mushrooms too.
00:39:52:04 - 00:39:53:04
Chris
They're pretty cute.
00:39:53:06 - 00:39:54:23
Filly
They are cute. They're very beautiful.
00:39:54:23 - 00:40:00:23
Chris
You can you can easily turn a mushroom into a, animated character. Like, I'm just looking.
00:40:00:23 - 00:40:02:01
Dr Anna
Oh, definitely.
00:40:02:03 - 00:40:04:14
Chris
Like, what have I got up on my screen? Do you want.
00:40:04:16 - 00:40:06:22
Filly
To you a new business idea, like.
00:40:07:00 - 00:40:11:03
Dr Anna
Creating a children's book or.
00:40:11:05 - 00:40:13:12
Filly
Children's TV show about mushrooms?
00:40:13:14 - 00:40:16:17
Chris
I want to grow some, too. This has been inspiring. Yeah.
00:40:16:19 - 00:40:19:02
Dr Anna
Okay. The. Yeah.
00:40:19:03 - 00:40:19:10
Filly
Thank you.
00:40:19:14 - 00:40:32:23
Chris
What would you. What? Okay, here we go. What would you recommend for, for, avid home gardener who wants to, energy mood got just something. Something kind of maybe that crosses all of those things or or.
00:40:33:02 - 00:40:35:07
Filly
That you could grow in height. Yeah. Backyard.
00:40:35:13 - 00:40:39:07
Chris
Yeah. Just something. Something cool.
00:40:39:09 - 00:40:41:03
Filly
In Tasmania.
00:40:41:05 - 00:40:42:12
Chris
Oh, yeah.
00:40:42:14 - 00:40:46:07
Filly
Chris is like. Chris is like asking for a friend, but actually just personally asking.
00:40:46:07 - 00:40:47:02
Chris
For our listeners.
00:40:47:07 - 00:40:50:02
Dr Anna
Me and.
00:40:50:04 - 00:40:54:02
Chris
Well, what's it, what's a what's a good couple of mushrooms that is.
00:40:54:02 - 00:40:59:22
Filly
That even a thing like, do people, can people actually grow it in their backyard or like.
00:41:00:00 - 00:41:04:23
Dr Anna
You can get like a mushroom, you can get a log and then you can inoculate it with.
00:41:05:00 - 00:41:06:13
Filly
That. That'd be pretty.
00:41:06:14 - 00:41:12:17
Dr Anna
With. Yeah, like a mushroom. You can probably get like mushroom plugs somewhere or like a garden store maybe.
00:41:12:17 - 00:41:15:21
Filly
Or there's definitely stuff around it. Oh, yeah.
00:41:16:02 - 00:41:24:22
Dr Anna
Yeah, yeah. So you can have have yeah. You can inoculate some logs and see what happens. It might take some time, but that would be fun.
00:41:25:00 - 00:41:29:12
Chris
What does inoculate a log mean. What does that mean.
00:41:29:14 - 00:41:58:10
Dr Anna
Yeah. So, the way that mushrooms make more of themselves is that once the fungal organism fruits, then it releases, spores out of either, you know, it's the or the, the polyp or surface or the gills. And to release the spores and then those spores, depending on the mushroom, will usually, you know, be swept away in the wind.
00:41:58:10 - 00:42:29:06
Dr Anna
There's some mushrooms where those spores will actually end up, like on the cap, like the top of the mushroom. And then it'll be like picked up by different insects and wind and whatever. And then it will then go, and inoculate or like, end up on another tree somewhere or in the soil somewhere. And if it's the right conditions, then it will, you know, the hyphae will grow and mycelium will grow, and then new mushroom will fruit.
00:42:29:06 - 00:42:48:16
Dr Anna
And that's how mushrooms make more of themselves. So to inoculate a log, you're basically taking the I don't know. I think it's probably like, some of the mycelium that's like clumped up and then you plug it. I'm really more of like a wild craft or medicine maker person than, a grower. But, yeah.
00:42:48:18 - 00:42:50:01
Chris
Why not both?
00:42:50:03 - 00:43:03:04
Filly
Let's. Yeah. Can I ask a follow up question too? So if that whether it's like you've inoculated a logger, it's wild. Once you pick it, does it regrow in the same spot? Or do you have to say you do it again or not kill it again?
00:43:03:06 - 00:43:45:14
Dr Anna
So the mycelium is already there and taken taken over that log. And so it will usually just fruit again. And some mushrooms are there's like annual mushrooms where it'll just like fruit once a year just like plants. And then there's like perennial where it just kind of like stay fruited for longer. So it's like the reishi mushroom is a good example of an annual where it like fruits in the like late, late summer, early fall and then, after it releases its spores, then the fruit has done its job, it's spread its seed, and so then it'll rot off, or it'll be picked or whatever.
00:43:45:16 - 00:43:53:07
Dr Anna
And then that log already has the mycelium in it. And so another, another fruit will will grow the following year.
00:43:53:09 - 00:43:54:13
Filly
So interesting.
00:43:54:13 - 00:43:55:09
Dr Anna
00:43:55:11 - 00:44:23:03
Filly
Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been I've learned so much, and I'm very. Yeah, I'm I'm curious. We are digging into all of it, foraging, growing and using supplements with our family, but also, clients and talking about supplements. So if someone wants to check out your, lucidum range. Medicinal mushrooms, where where can they find them?
00:44:23:03 - 00:44:26:04
Filly
We'll make sure we pop all the links in the show notes.
00:44:26:06 - 00:44:31:20
Dr Anna
Yeah, they can, find them on our website. Lucidum medicinals.com.
00:44:31:22 - 00:44:32:12
Chris
There you go. There we.
00:44:32:12 - 00:44:34:03
Dr Anna
Go. There it.
00:44:34:03 - 00:44:44:04
Filly
Is. And you're kindly gifting our listeners 15% discount if they use the code or when they use the code burner in capitals. Yes. Yes.
00:44:44:06 - 00:44:44:15
Dr Anna
Yes.
00:44:44:19 - 00:45:05:22
Filly
So good. Thank you. And also like, whether it's a health seeker or a practitioner, who wants to find out more about what you do learning from you, being healed by you, is that your website? So you've got Doctor Anna?
00:45:06:00 - 00:45:07:21
Dr Anna
Yeah. Doctor on a sitcom.
00:45:07:21 - 00:45:09:01
Filly
Yeah. Okay. Perfect.
00:45:09:02 - 00:45:09:14
Chris
Here it is.
00:45:09:14 - 00:45:10:11
Filly
Yeah, yeah.
00:45:10:13 - 00:45:13:03
Dr Anna
Wow. Yeah.
00:45:13:05 - 00:45:15:22
Chris
I'm. I'm a googling fiend.
00:45:16:00 - 00:45:20:17
Dr Anna
I love it. Yeah. You're you're quick. It's game. Awesome.
00:45:20:19 - 00:45:21:13
Chris
So good.
00:45:21:15 - 00:45:25:01
Filly
All right, well, thank you so much.
00:45:25:03 - 00:45:28:01
Dr Anna
Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is really nice conversation.
00:45:28:01 - 00:45:28:21
Filly
It's been lovely.
00:45:28:23 - 00:45:30:10
Chris
Is awesome. I'm inspired.
00:45:30:15 - 00:45:33:11
Filly
Yeah. Let's talk about mushrooms now.
00:45:33:13 - 00:45:33:19
Dr Anna
Yeah.
00:45:33:20 - 00:45:36:18
Chris
Yeah, I know what my next couple of books are going to be.
00:45:36:19 - 00:45:51:03
Filly
Oh yeah Chris Chris gets on. Definitely all when you said when I learned something I go, Dave I, I'm like that. But Chris is like that times ten. And it's really random stuff too. So at the.
00:45:51:03 - 00:45:52:07
Dr Anna
Super random.
00:45:52:09 - 00:46:00:00
Filly
At the moment it is gardening and our whole back and front yard is like a jungle now, whereas before it was just like barren grass.
00:46:00:02 - 00:46:02:00
Dr Anna
So oh, say thank you.
00:46:02:00 - 00:46:07:23
Filly
I'm going to like thank you in advance because we're going to have mushrooms growing out of out e holes very shortly.
00:46:07:23 - 00:46:25:14
Chris
This is all you need to do. Like to, to inspire me, to do something that you want to do, you just, like, get a podcast guest on like that. But I've got no idea about. And and it's just like, wow, this is a good conversation. I'm like, yes, I'll do the thing I'm feeling is like, excellent.
00:46:25:16 - 00:46:26:12
Dr Anna
Yeah.
00:46:26:14 - 00:46:32:10
Filly
Thank you everybody for listening as well.
00:46:32:12 - 00:46:42:14
Filly
Thank you so much for listening. We so appreciate you. If you'd like to give us extra smiles, drop us a review and spread the love by sharing this episode.
00:46:42:16 - 00:47:08:14
Chris
You can also write your own state of burnout and the root cause contributors by taking our Ending Body Burnout assessment on our website. And if you're interested in learning about that group or one on one ending Body burnout programs, shoot us a DM via Instagram or Facebook. Have the best day ever.
00:47:08:16 - 00:47:09:00
Chris
For.
